I read about this and I wanna know if this is valid. Some word choices may be poor but the gist is there.
God created a perfect world and then Adam and Eve. The Devil tricked them into ingesting Sin before they had kids so the children became heirs to Sin when they were born. Or simply, they got Sin, too. And eventually we did. Now God wants to recreate the perfect world with supposedly perfect people (defined as people who obey Him through faith, doesn't do things that are against Him, etc). In order to belong to this perfect world (which is Salvation or the eternal promise), we must then of course strive to be perfect and rise above Sin. God permits Sin so he could know who among us are worthy of that. Of course he won't let anyone who might once again wreck his perfect world so we must defeat Sin in ourselves completely, not even a tinge left.
Is this right? Or how right or wrong is it?
It's close...but the overall feel I get from it seems odd....um...where to start?
I guess I'll start with the normal thing I post in this forum: I am coming at this from a religious point-of-view.
God did, in fact, create a perfect world. Adam and Eve existed in the garden of Eden. Satan, in the form of a serpent, tricked Eve into partaking of the fruit of knowledge making her "like God" (in her judgment of good behavior/bad behavior). Adam later eats the fruit. NOTE: Fruit, no one knows what it was, or if we can even access this fruit anymore.
Because Adam and Eve were no longer ignorant to sin, God banished them from the Garden of Eden. After having been cursed with the pains of laboring in fields and birthing of children (because of breaking God's only rule at that point), they were the start of sin on Earth. Now, a Christians goal is to follow the new law (new testament) from the Bible as best they can (which says no instrumental music in church services, that there is only one church [aka, denominations are not true churches], and many other things that many churches ignore).
Obviously, no one can be perfect, but in the end, those who lived to their best according to the Bible will be allowed to enter Heaven.
A question many have pondered, I believe G-d gave us the answer in the Torah.
JPS BIBLE states:
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| Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, |
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| Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; |
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| Jer 21:8 And unto this people thou shalt say: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death. |
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| Deu 13:4 (13:5) After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave. |
G-d tells us we have the ability to choose to do good or to sin. There are consequences for both. Not always immediate and obvious, but they exist none the less. It serves a purpose we may not completely understand, but then he is the creator and we are the creation. We can not define or second guess him. I dont believe G-d expects perfection, but He does requite repentance when we fail or make wrong choices. Repentance is not just a oops, sorry. But to truly turn from the evil or the sin and turn back to Him and His ways.
JPS BIBLE states:
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Eze 18:21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him; for his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD; and not rather that he should return from his ways, and live? |
Disclaimer: I am well aware of the many arguments against my statments and those who dont believe...well they are exercising their free will. 
| upcirculohispanico wrote: |
| God created a perfect world and then Adam and Eve. The Devil tricked them into ingesting Sin before they had kids so the children became heirs to Sin when they were born. Or simply, they got Sin, too. And eventually we did. |
But do you think that's just? Do you think that it is OK to punish the children of Adam and Even because of their parents' crime?
Let's suppose that the sin Adam and Eve ingested was actually like some kind of metaphorical poison or disease they passed down to their children. Think of all the things a good god could have done:
- He could have cured Adam and Eve. He could have removed the sin they ingested. We know he can do that, because he apparently he does that now (except, for some strange reason, it involved torturing a flesh version of himself... but whatever).
- He could have prevented Adam and Eve from having children. Why not? Let them live out their lives and die of old age... then start with another pair of people, except this time put a guard on the ****** tree.
- He could have prevented the poison/disease/sin from being transmitted to the children. He created perfect humans once, right? Why not again? We know he is capable of creating diseases in children that the parents didn't have, and we know that he is capable of creating children in diseased parents that don't carry the parents disease... it's rare but it happens, so God can do it. So... why didn't he?
| upcirculohispanico wrote: |
| Now God wants to recreate the perfect world with supposedly perfect people (defined as people who obey Him through faith, doesn't do things that are against Him, etc). In order to belong to this perfect world (which is Salvation or the eternal promise), we must then of course strive to be perfect and rise above Sin. God permits Sin so he could know who among us are worthy of that. Of course he won't let anyone who might once again wreck his perfect world so we must defeat Sin in ourselves completely, not even a tinge left. |
But consider the multitude of problems with that.
We are supposed to be perfect and rise above sin, when in fact sin is apparently so tough to overcome that God had to allow his own son - a GOD - to be mercilessly butchered and humiliated to beat it.
Sin is only possible because the tools and temptations of sin exist. You can't lust if you don't have hormones, you can't steal if you can't get at things that don't belong to you, you can't lie if you can't communicate. So God is not merely sitting back and watching to see who gets through his little obstacle course... he's making the course as nasty as possible. That isn't testing, that's just cruelty.
And then... isn't God omniscient? Shouldn't he know already who's going wreck a perfect world and who isn't? Without even testing?
And there are hundreds and hundreds more objections.
| tchaunt wrote: |
| God did, in fact, create a perfect world. Adam and Eve existed in the garden of Eden. Satan, in the form of a serpent... |
If God created a perfect world... why was Satan there?
| BinahZ wrote: |
| Disclaimer: I am well aware of the many arguments against my statments and those who dont believe...well they are exercising their free will. |
People who say that 1 + 1 is 2 are exercising their free will, and so are people that say 1 + 1 is 5. But one of those groups is just talking nonsense.
Free will does not explain the existence of sin.To be very honest I have never come across a Religion that makes a great deal of logical sense, even evolution, which by and large is as much of a Religion as a Science has some major flaws in it. I suppose the best thing is more, do you believe in hell? What would the point of it be? And then how do you define sin, what is it? If you don't believe in hell then saying something is a sin has little point, since sin is apparently "evil" and therefore there has to be a result of doing evil. If there is no result, or side effect then how can you tell if it's any different from doing good? Which begs another question. What is good, why do we feel the need to define the two... and this line of reasoning can go on forever. However I was raised by a "good" Christian family, got taught all the rules and regulations, had to do Religious Studies in the private school I attended as a compulsory elective and now I'm at University. The truth is the person I am today wouldn't be nearly as logical nor as polite if not for my parents, but their Religion had a fair bit to do with it. I believe Religion is simply a human made tool for controlling other people. It can be either good or bad. So to be honest I think sin is permitted, if there is a divine being, not to test us but more because we created the term. Sin is a word we use for things that we disapprove of by instinct. So in a way it is permitted to exist because we exist and thought it up.
So in the end I think it’s best to ask, what do you believe sin is and then ask yourself, why do you allow it to exist in your life?
| Stanley9811 wrote: |
| To be very honest I have never come across a Religion that makes a great deal of logical sense, even evolution, which by and large is as much of a Religion as a Science has some major flaws in it. |
Would you care to back that assertion up?
Evolutionary theory has nothing in common with religion. One requires evidence, the other faith.
What part of evolutionary theory do you think requires faith?
Would you care to point out what the flaws are in the evolutionary synthesis? I'm sure my colleagues would be interested to know where they have gone wrong...In my opinion, God values free will very highly. Obviously (if God is real and the Bible describes Him fairly accurately, as I believe) He is in total control of the universe, and He could have prevented any sin from occuring.
The only benefit I see from allowing sin is that we are able to choose whether we will follow God's instructions or not. The price of free will includes human misery, Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross, and the fact that not all will accept the sacrifice and will be lost to God's kingdom forever.
| SonLight wrote: |
In my opinion, God values free will very highly. Obviously (if God is real and the Bible describes Him fairly accurately, as I believe) He is in total control of the universe, and He could have prevented any sin from occuring.
The only benefit I see from allowing sin is that we are able to choose whether we will follow God's instructions or not. The price of free will includes human misery, Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross, and the fact that not all will accept the sacrifice and will be lost to God's kingdom forever. |
thats the thing about sin if GOD is trully what he is then he isnt allowing sin he is making it, all emotions and reaction can be controlled by chemicles in your body hence almost all our action can easily be stopped that means almost all sins like lust and murder can be stopped by a single removal of gene code.
god made sin and all that allows sin he is the cause, also ask yourself why would god allow for sins like 9/11 HE allowed the terrorist too fly the plane and kill 1000s of people.....he let that 1 terrorist commit a sin and 1000 other people suffer.
why? If i ever meet god i would smack him across the face and call him and "idiooooot" | Bannik wrote: |
| If i ever meet god i would smack him across the face and call him and "idiooooot" |
Well I guess you have that opportunity when you look into the mirror? You see a hole in someone else and an abyss opens in yourself? 
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Stanley9811 wrote: | | To be very honest I have never come across a Religion that makes a great deal of logical sense, even evolution, which by and large is as much of a Religion as a Science has some major flaws in it. |
Would you care to back that assertion up?
Evolutionary theory has nothing in common with religion. One requires evidence, the other faith.
What part of evolutionary theory do you think requires faith?
Would you care to point out what the flaws are in the evolutionary synthesis? I'm sure my colleagues would be interested to know where they have gone wrong... |
I get your kind of response very often when I happen to post anything relating to evolution or even religion, both sides argue their point remarkably well but honestly speaking, your “facts” have yet to convince me, and don’t tell me carbon dating proves anything, and don’t give me any of that nonsense about the “fact” that depending on how deep something was under the earth surface can prove how long ago it existed. One flood can bury enough in under a few hours to add a few hundred metres to the depth of the soil in some parts of the world. If you present me with something that proves to me beyond a reasonable doubt that this theory is correct I will accept it. The same goes for anyone with a religion, show me one religion that is beyond contention and I will accept it as the truth. Otherwise, please relax, stop getting so offended every time someone else has a different opinion from you. It would save me allot of grief if you only responded with overwhelming evidence that when tested can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. As long as there is still even a slight possibility that you are wrong I refuse to agree to it as the only truth.
I am simply stating my opinion, if it offends you, feel free to respond to me one on one via an instant message or even e-mail if you want it just ask. Let’s not clutter someone else’s thread with our debate shall we? | Stanley9811 wrote: |
| I get your kind of response very often when I happen to post anything relating to evolution or even religion, both sides argue their point remarkably well but honestly speaking, your “facts” have yet to convince me, and don’t tell me carbon dating proves anything, and don’t give me any of that nonsense about the “fact” that depending on how deep something was under the earth surface can prove how long ago it existed. |
Well, if you actually understood anything about radiometric dating then it might be worth me investing the time to point out the difference between carbon 14 dating and the other methods used to date non-organic material. Since I suspect you don't, then the best I can do is point you to some reference material. If you read it and do a bit of work then you might be in a position to have a sensible debate on the matter...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dating.html
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| One flood can bury enough in under a few hours to add a few hundred metres to the depth of the soil in some parts of the world. |
It can indeed. But when you compress that into rock then you don't get kilometres. Nor do you get a chronologically consistent deposition of fossils
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| If you present me with something that proves to me beyond a reasonable doubt that this theory is correct I will accept it. |
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
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| As long as there is still even a slight possibility that you are wrong I refuse to agree to it as the only truth. |
Well, since science teaches us that there is ALWAYS a possibility that a theory is wrong then, of course, you can know nothing for certain. If you want to rely on trillion-to-one possibilities (and much more remote than that) then go ahead. | deanhills wrote: |
| Bannik wrote: | | If i ever meet god i would smack him across the face and call him and "idiooooot" |
Well I guess you have that opportunity when you look into the mirror? You see a hole in someone else and an abyss opens in yourself? |
blame illegal substances | SonLight wrote: |
In my opinion, God values free will very highly. Obviously (if God is real and the Bible describes Him fairly accurately, as I believe) He is in total control of the universe, and He could have prevented any sin from occuring.
The only benefit I see from allowing sin is that we are able to choose whether we will follow God's instructions or not. The price of free will includes human misery, Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross, and the fact that not all will accept the sacrifice and will be lost to God's kingdom forever. |
Free will does not justify suffering... not in any sense, and it doesn't matter how "highly" God values it.
Observe: assume that... for whatever reason... God values free will so much that he's willing to allow us to completely destroy ourselves without stepping in to help us out. Alright, fine. That's a little nasty, but let's go with it. But... how do you get from there... to allowing others to suffer from your free will choices?
Put it this way: suppose that God has given you the freedom of choice as to whether you want to set yourself on fire or not. Fine, good. But why does he also have to give you the ability to set others on fire? That's not fair, and that's not valuing free will at all... because where in that equation does the other person's free will come into play? What if they don't want to be set on fire by you? If God values free will, then all you have to do is want to set someone else on fire... you made the choice freely, and that's free will... but you don't have to be able to actually carry it out.
Simply put, the "free will" we have now gives us the freedom to choose to do something, not to actually accomplish it. Why don't you freely choose to live forever? Or why don't you freely choose to "sin" all your life, then go to Heaven without repenting? You can choose to do those things, and if free will exists that's what free will is, but that doesn't give you the ability to actually do them. No matter how important free will is to God, that doesn't explain suffering.
It doesn't explain sin either. Sin is only possible because God created the ability to sin... not the will, the ability. You wouldn't be able to freely choose to steal from someone if they didn't have anything to steal.
| Stanley9811 wrote: |
| I am simply stating my opinion, if it offends you.... |
Personally, i didn't see any signs of "offence" in Bikerman's reply. He was simply stating the obvious. You are entitled to your own opinion; you are not entitled to your own facts. You stated that both science and "evolution" were religions. That is categorically false. It's not true, not by any reasonable definition of the word "religion". Bikerman could have just called you a liar or a fool, both of which would have been reasonable responses to your assertions, if a little harsh. Instead he asked you to back your claim up. Assuming you weren't just speaking nonsense, then you should be able to back up what you say, right? So... why not do it? | Bannik wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | Bannik wrote: | | If i ever meet god i would smack him across the face and call him and "idiooooot" |
Well I guess you have that opportunity when you look into the mirror? You see a hole in someone else and an abyss opens in yourself? |
blame illegal substances |
I should try that! Guess life will then be smiling back at me! I guess we need to get back to the topic however. Why does God permit sin? I guess one may have to say it is divine to sin 
Sup, has anyone here considered the fact that god permits sin cos his insane or not what us humans call sane. This kinda goes hand in hand with wat the church says about how humans can't comprehend the actions of god. Well i dont think a "sane" human can understand an insane human as well.. So maybe we shouldn't try to comprehend his action as they are like a mad man's and cannot be predicted and try figure out if he or she is even real.
Lets say God designed the Universe in a computer and pressed the Enter button to start it. And so happened the Big Bang and slowly it evolved to create Humans. But the Universe was designed such that it would create humans in some 12-14 billion years.
It is now upon us to choose what is right and what is wrong. God has also put options so sometimes he 'does' interfere.
i think the worst sin is neglecting other creatures that are suffering or making others suffer. However, God's perfect world is only when they are suffering for their own sins and not for others' sins. For example, why would God let some demon make the people in africa suffer? They must be suffering for their own sins in their past lives. But it does not mean that we neglect them. Neglecting them is worse sin. It is our duty to help them and every other creatures in need. Everyone is God's children. So if we love God we should love every one of God's children.
| ovg8 wrote: |
| Sup, has anyone here considered the fact that god permits sin cos his insane or not what us humans call sane. This kinda goes hand in hand with wat the church says about how humans can't comprehend the actions of god. Well i dont think a "sane" human can understand an insane human as well.. So maybe we shouldn't try to comprehend his action as they are like a mad man's and cannot be predicted and try figure out if he or she is even real. |
how can you be real and god be unreal?Permissions is enabled . . . by Bluedoll
“Lets say God designed the Universe in a computer and pressed the Enter button to start it.” . . . by supernova1987a
The master originator liked the GUI part so much that he decided to share it as an open source program. This bad dude “say toon” questioned the code as valid, thought he just might steal, put his twist on it, then sell as his own and tell the users that his program was much better. All the child objects would be affected by this conflict so the master swore he would fix the problem.
In the meantime computers are crashing all over the place and people are upset saying all kinds of things including, “why is this happening?”
Well that’s what you get when we launch free software and the only way we are going to be happy is to contribute something useful.
| supernova1987a wrote: |
how can you be real and god be unreal? |
Read my sig bro, jks. Then you have to stick in the concept of there is no god, then that senario is correct. | upcirculohispanico wrote: |
I read about this and I wanna know if this is valid. Some word choices may be poor but the gist is there.
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Peace.
I'll give the Muslim view.
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God created a perfect world and then Adam and Eve. |
God created a world. If you mean by perfect, no natural disasters occured and no moral evil occured, then I disagree. Natural disasters could still occur. Moral evil was possible, although that doesn't mean it had happened yet.
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The Devil tricked them into ingesting Sin before they had kids so the children became heirs to Sin when they were born. Or simply, they got Sin, too. And eventually we did.
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According to Islam, each person is responsible for their own sins. The idea of having sins which you don't deserve is an unjust idea.
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Now God wants to recreate the perfect world with supposedly perfect people (defined as people who obey Him through faith, doesn't do things that are against Him, etc). In order to belong to this perfect world (which is Salvation or the eternal promise), we must then of course strive to be perfect and rise above Sin.
|
According to Islam, this life is a test. Not a recreation of the perfect world. By that view, why didn't God just make us perfect the first time or recreate us as perfect?
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God permits Sin so he could know who among us are worthy of that. |
God permits us to sin because if He didn't, we wouldn't have free will, and we wouldn't be able to choose wrong, and so the Test would be pointless.
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Of course he won't let anyone who might once again wreck his perfect world so we must defeat Sin in ourselves completely, not even a tinge left.
Is this right? Or how right or wrong is it? |
It's right according to Christianity, or at least one variation of it. Although many disagree with the views.
Peace.Anyone heard the country song : "Heaven is just a sin away"??????
Kinda explains it all???
i would have to say he permits sin, because we have the power of choice. Simple as that.
Now why cant we move on to things as absurd as THE ORIGINAL SIN
How can the MOST beautiful thing which is to bring life into this world be a SIN.
I think that God created us and gave us the choice.
Good and evil exist everywhere. You have the choice to do whatever you want. Just be sure to assume what you've done.
Why did god create sin? Good question....... did he....or did it? I say it that way because everyone seems to think god has a gender.
Why did god create man?........did he?
Why did god create religion?
Why are we even here?
How about this, why did god create religion, and people that say they speak for god, and tell us who is righteous and who is not, and tell us to kill our fellow man, all the while telling us not to kill?
I don't care if you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Budhist, or any other religion, do they all not tell us that killing is a sin?
But then in all of the world religions, those that appoint themselves as athorities tell their followers that killing the unrighteous is acceptable? How exactly does that work?
You want to know what a sin is..........that more humans have been slaughtered in the name of god, for some religious reason, by people that were following "their doctrine" than for any other reason in the world, more than plagues, more than natural disasters, and more than any other occurances in the world.
You want to know what an even bigger sin is? that anyone actually thinks they can force another into believing something with the threat of death. What a joke?
Sin exists because we all have free will to choose what to believe or think or feel, and we learn by the mistakes we make, and we evlove as we age. If all you knew was right and good, and pleasurable, then how would you ever learn what they were, we live in a world of opposites, everything exists in relationship to it's opposite, sin exists so we can learn what is right.
You know the original definition of sin was "to miss the mark", for any good target shooter, what they know is that if you miss the mark, load up and try again. | BigGeek wrote: |
| I don't care if you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Budhist, or any other religion, do they all not tell us that killing is a sin? |
No, they all do not.Because all of us have a choice what we will do in our lives... I would like that someone as big as God is looking over us and punishing people who are hurting other people… But here, on earth!
| biljap wrote: |
| Because all of us have a choice what we will do in our lives... I would like that someone as big as God is looking over us and punishing people who are hurting other people… But here, on earth! |
I don't believe God is punishing anyone, we are punishing ourselves, and to a great extent by our own delusions.
