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Was Paul confused?

 


BinahZ
KJV
Quote:
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Did they or did they not hear a voice? Was the writer of Acts confused? Or perhaps the witnesses to what they heard or didnt hear....
Did those with Paul remain standing or fall down?
KJV
Quote:
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Quote:
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


Perhaps the answers lie in Pauls own words:
KJV
Quote:
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Indi
Obviously i can't answer from a religious perspective, but i can give you textual criticism explanation.

Acts is a complete fantasy. The writer of Acts had no contact with Paul at all, and made up everything about him. We know this because of several reasons, not the least being that the travel itinerary for Paul described in Acts doesn't match the itinerary Paul gives himself - in other words, when Paul says he went to such and such places and never went to such and such places, Acts has a different story. There is also the fact that Paul, in his letters, says he never spoke with Jesus... yet in Acts he has a conversation with him (although, some apologists weasel around this by saying he was talking to "God or the Holy Spirit" and not specifically Jesus, so it doesn't count).

So Acts is just a fairy tale. Biblical fan fiction, if you like. The Pauline letters are the only authentic record of Paul and his ministry we have. (And, take caution, because some of the "Pauline letters" weren't actually written by Paul, like Hebrews for example. Romans probably was, though.)
BinahZ
Very interesting perspective Indi. But even with that as a possibility, most writers of fantasy even are capable of writing in a consistant manner. Self contradiction is a huge red flag. To me it either indicates sloppiness in putting together the script or arrogance in thinking that readers are not capable of catching the many inconsistancies.

I truly find it interesting that Paul whom I consider more the founder of christianity than a Jew named Jesus would have been allowed to have such writings attributed to him by the church who created the canon.
Indi
Well now you're asking questions about 2,000 year old people, with a modern mindset. ^_^;

When dealing with "scholarly" texts from that long ago - and especially religious texts - there are some things you have to keep in mind that are very different from contemporary thinking. For starters, people back then had no qualms whatsoever about flat-out lying to make a point. Even in Christian writing, some of the greatest Christian thinkers of the ancient world said it straight up: it's OK to lie in order to get Truth (that is, religious "truth") across. (Arguably, many Christian writers today maintain this tradition.) Another thing that was very different from today was that back then, authority was the last word on anything. If two guys wrote about about something, and one guy said "A happened" then listed a hundred logical reasons for why, and the other just said "B happened, and we know it's true because Irenaeus said so"... then B was the official conclusion. So it was perfectly normal practise to write something about your own beliefs while putting them in the mouth of a famous person - and that wasn't just religious practise! Plato did the same thing - putting his later theories in Socrates' mouth.

You also have to take Acts into perspective: when it was written and by whom. The writer was likely the same Luke who wrote the Gospel of Luke, a Christian apostle who travelled a little with Paul, writing Acts for his patron Theophilus a couple years after Paul was murdered. Very likely Luke was seen as a sort of expert on Christianity - at least by Theophilus - because he had travelled with Paul (it is likely that Paul even mentions him in Philemon 1:24). Theophilus must have asked Luke to record the history of Christianity in his (Theophilus's) name, and Luke was only to happy to comply (he was likely paid very well, after all).

We know that Luke "wrote" the Gospel of Luke by plagiarizing and combining two sources: the Gospel of Mark and a lost source now known as "Q". He had no part in any of the events in that book (that i can recall), and he wasn't a witness. But he had sources to plagiarize, so he was safe. But when it came time to write what happened after the Gospel of Mark ended... he was stuck. His only sources then were the Pauline letters he had - probably most if not all of them - and his memory of what Paul had told him and what they had done together. And let's be clear: Luke was no meticulous researcher, he was a story teller. He had a knack for taking a bunch of sources and weaving a nicely consistent narrative out of them... but clearly he wasn't perfect at doing that (just look at the contradictions between Mark and Luke, for example). Using his memory and the Pauline letters (along with other sources probably, which are now lost, and hearsay from rumours and myths about the other early Christian apostles), he put together the narrative of Acts. But again, it wasn't perfect. It was good enough at a cursory glance (you really have to lay out Paul's track in detail to catch the mistakes), but not perfect.

You say "most writers of fantasy even are capable of writing in a consistant manner"? i call bullshit. You don't seriously believe that, do you? Have you ever seen a movie or a book that tells a detailed story about a historical event or person that doesn't have some historical gaffes? Especially stories intended to thrill or romanticize some event or person!

No, Luke was just a writer drawing on as much facts as he could get his hands on and trying to create a consistent, historically correct narrative out of it. Even with the capabilities of research we have today, it's almost impossible to do that without introducing some mistakes... and back then? Wow. You can only catch Luke's gaffes if you read the Pauline epistles very carefully and take the time to meticulously plot out every single detail of his travels. On a cursory read, he did alright. Certainly Theophilus - who was probably pretty bright himself - bought it. So did centuries of Christian scholars.

Methinks you're being a tad too judgemental here.

Incidentally... you do know that Paul was a Jew, too, right? ^_^;
BinahZ
Indi wrote
Quote:
When dealing with "scholarly" texts from that long ago - and especially religious texts - there are some things you have to keep in mind that are very different from contemporary thinking. For starters, people back then had no qualms whatsoever about flat-out lying to make a point. Even in Christian writing, some of the greatest Christian thinkers of the ancient world said it straight up: it's OK to lie in order to get Truth (that is, religious "truth") across. (Arguably, many Christian writers today maintain this tradition.)


First of all, whether the text is scholarly is debatable. And the acceptance of lying varied culture to culture. You assume I know nothing of the time period saying im judging with a modern mindset. I could say you are approaching the matter with a greek mindset, which I happen to believe is needed to lend validity to the subject matter.
Indi wrote
Quote:
You say "most writers of fantasy even are capable of writing in a consistant manner"? i call bullshit. You don't seriously believe that, do you? Have you ever seen a movie or a book that tells a detailed story about a historical event or person that doesn't have some historical gaffes? Especially stories intended to thrill or romanticize some event or person!


You seem to be mixing venues here, i said fantasy not a historical writing. So the BS belongs elsewhere. And I seriously believe all my above statments.

I dont think im being too judgmental, just approaching the matter from a different perspective obviousy than you do.

And whether Paul was a jew or not is debated, seems he had to "appear as a jew "to the jews....
Indi
BinahZ wrote:
First of all, whether the text is scholarly is debatable.

No, whether you think it is scholarly may be debatable, but it is certainly not debatable that the audience those books were written for thought they were scholarly. And if you want to understand why those books are the way they are, you are going to have to understand what the writers were thinking when they wrote them.

BinahZ wrote:
And the acceptance of lying varied culture to culture. You assume I know nothing of the time period saying im judging with a modern mindset. I could say you are approaching the matter with a greek mindset, which I happen to believe is needed to lend validity to the subject matter.

Er... the acceptance of lying may have varied from culture to culture... but so what? We're talking about one culture: the culture that produced Acts and the letter to the Romans. That culture thought lying was perfectly acceptable. What other cultures think is irrelevant.

i approach these writings with an Ancient Greek mindset in order to understand why they are they way they are... which, i thought, was what you were asking about. You wanted to know why the two chronicles contradict. i explained why: the writer of Acts was making stuff up. You wanted to know how the writer of Acts could get away with making stuff up. i explained why by explaining how things worked back then. What's your problem with that? That's the answer to your question: the contradiction exists because the writer of Acts made it up, and he got away with it because of who he was and the society he was writing in and for.

BinahZ wrote:
You seem to be mixing venues here, i said fantasy not a historical writing. So the BS belongs elsewhere. And I seriously believe all my above statments.

i know what you said, and i'm fully aware of the fact that you think the whole thing is fantasy. So di i. But your opinion is irrelevant, and so is mine - you wanted to know why the text is the way it is, well part of the answer to that question is that the writer was trying to write a historical narrative for his patron. Luke surely didn't think he was writing fantasy, and his opinion of what he was doing matters because it shaped the final product. So Luke's opinion matters, yours doesn't and mine doesn't.

Look, it's as simple as this: if you are serious about trying to understand why the contradictions exist, you're going to have to consider the environment that the books were written in. If on the other hand, you're just trying to pick a fight with Christians, say so now so i stop wasting my time with you.

BinahZ wrote:
And whether Paul was a jew or not is debated, seems he had to "appear as a jew "to the jews....

Uh... no.

Paul was a Jew. No debate. He didn't have to "appear as a Jew to the Jews". He was a Jew. He may have even been a Pharisee - at the very least he agreed with them. He says himself that he was as Jewish as they come, and Luke - in Acts - agrees. Even if you don't trust Luke, and i don't, Paul was pretty clear about it. In fact, if you are willing to trust Acts at least where it doesn't contradict Paul, it says that Paul was arrested while observing Jewish practises in Jerusalem.

i have never heard of any scholarly debate challenging Paul's Jewish background. Obviously we don't know much about Paul for certain, but there is no rational reason to believe he wasn't a Jew - and if he wasn't a Jew, that creates a lot of problems, because everything of what we know about him hinges on him having a Jewish background. The reason he was so successful as an apostle is because the early Christian Jews accepted him as a Jew (as Saul), yet he had Roman citizenship so he was accepted as a "Gentile" (as Paul). He is the reason Christianity spread from a Jewish sect to an international phenomenon.
BinahZ
Indi wrote
Quote:
Er... the acceptance of lying may have varied from culture to culture... but so what? We're talking about one culture: the culture that produced Acts and the letter to the Romans. That culture thought lying was perfectly acceptable. What other cultures think is irrelevant.

i approach these writings with an Ancient Greek mindset in order to understand why they are they way they are... which, i thought, was what you were asking about.


The problem with your "greek mindset" is these werent greeks. They were Jews, yes there was a Greek influence at various times, but their culture and lifestyle were ruled by the Jewish culture. Just because your nt was written in Greek it is Jewish people that are supposedly being spoken of.

Indi wrote:
Quote:
Uh... no.

Paul was a Jew. No debate. He didn't have to "appear as a Jew to the Jews". He was a Jew. He may have even been a Pharisee - at the very least he agreed with them. He says himself that he was as Jewish as they come, and Luke - in Acts - agrees. Even if you don't trust Luke, and i don't, Paul was pretty clear about it. In fact, if you are willing to trust Acts at least where it doesn't contradict Paul, it says that Paul was arrested while observing Jewish practises in Jerusalem.


Whether Paul was a Jew is a subject of debate. It is debated by many scholars, Hyam Maccoby for one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyam_Maccoby

My points were valid questions that have been asked by many. It is not "picking fights" with christians to have an honest exchange. You say that neither of our opinions matter, but yet you seem to think only your version of the historical context is valid... cant have it both ways. I have read and studied the nt for many years, and in that process I read many scholars commentary on the matter. Historical and theological. Theologians at Harvard divinity have raised many of these same questions.
farmerdave
BinahZ wrote:

Whether Paul was a Jew is a subject of debate. It is debated by many scholars, Hyam Maccoby for one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyam_Maccoby

My points were valid questions that have been asked by many. It is not "picking fights" with christians to have an honest exchange. You say that neither of our opinions matter, but yet you seem to think only your version of the historical context is valid... cant have it both ways. I have read and studied the nt for many years, and in that process I read many scholars commentary on the matter. Historical and theological. Theologians at Harvard divinity have raised many of these same questions.


BinahZ,

A couple of basic points would be helpful to understand. "Theologians" at Harvard and a lot of the other big, ivy league schools as well as those who have been influenced by them (*Indi seems to me to be a prime example as she follows the "party line" quite well) start with a premise and prejudice which prevents them from getting very far in understanding the Bible. Their premise is that there is no such thing as supernatural (yes, you read it correctly). Then, they proceed to try and interpret, critique, and explain the Bible. The obvious problem they will encounter is that every book of the Bible has God, a supernatural being, orchestrating events or speaking or performing miracles or someone recounting what God has done or said. So, the work of these theologians is more or less to dismantle everything supernatural about the Bible under the guise of responsible textual criticism. This, of course, leads to a complete dismantling of the Bible (in their minds and the minds of those who accept their words as true). Then, for those who accept their teaching, it wrecks their faith because their minds can't get past the doubt and unbelief which these theologians have blessed them with. Lastly, they all mock "apologists" as if they were not as enlightened as they themselves are. Interestingly, I have not found a single liberal theologian who seems to have half of the intelligence and integrity with Scriptures as some of my conservative professors have had, especially no ones affiliated with the Jesus Seminar (as was my OT professor).

Jesus had it right when he spoke of the Scriptures (which would have been the TANAK or completed Old Testament): "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). Paul also was right: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). As was Peter: "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21). Peter, Paul, and Jesus aren't suggesting anything new, of course. The Old Testament has more than its fair shair of these sort of Scriptures as well.

As an interesting and sad aside... a lot of the time people seem to start on the right track (faith in God, confidence in the Bible, etc.). Then, because there is something in the Bible which they refuse to accept (such as no women pastors, homosexuality as a sin, the existence of hell, etc.), they look for a way to explain away that particular verse (such as it being simply a rule for that time period, an insertion by the human author that wasn't from God, a bias in society, etc.). As a result, they end up completely undermining their faith in anything the Bible says. Then, a lot of them get mad and seem to enjoy trying to rip up everything else the Bible says. All of this because they wouldn't yield to God on one or two points, but hardened their hearts in unbelief.

Thanks for your contribution to Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Those were sources I would not have thought to consult or known where to do so. So, thanks for contributing them. You mentioned you have been studying the New Testament for a while, so I'd like to point you to a website of a fairly scholarly Jewish Christian, Dr. Michael Brown. He deals with a lot of questions that Jews, in particular, would have about Jesus, since he himself is Jewish. I think you will find his website a good resource for interracting with a lot of issues and questions you may have.

http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/Home.html

Shalom,

David

P.S. What is a "Zionist are Us Propagator"?
BinahZ
farmerdave,

1. Definition of a Zionist propagator = to perpetuate the spread of Zionism.
2. I am very familiar with Michael Brown. I have seen several of his debates,
my favorite was with Tovia Singer. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/ I am very familiar with many of his debates and his apologist teachings for messianics.
3. I happen to know first hand there are many Harvard type theologians who have a very strong faith.
My husband attended the Harvard Divinity School there, and enjoyed many professors who have a great faith. They are diverse and truth seekers, but education and seeking does not automatically detract from ones faith in G-d. I give u credit for noting that if jezus spoke of scriptures it was the Tanach.
I find the concept of the historical figure quite intriquing. Not 100% that he existed, but if he did, he is a interesting character. Education, and knowledge does not diminish faith. If so...there is a issue with your faith imo. Knowledge is not the enemy of G-d. Judaism encourages education and questioning and we have thousands of years of belief in the One G-d. (BTW I happen to be very conservative in my views)
4. My knowledge of the nt is not perfect, but I am very aware of many christian teachings and the text itself. I found Paul to be one of the biggest detractors from what jesus taught according to those who were supposed to have sat at his feet.

And your welcome for the contribution on Deut.
Shalom
Indi
farmerdave wrote:
"Theologians" at Harvard and a lot of the other big, ivy league schools as well as those who have been influenced by them (*Indi seems to me to be a prime example as she follows the "party line" quite well) start with a premise and prejudice which prevents them from getting very far in understanding the Bible. Their premise is that there is no such thing as supernatural (yes, you read it correctly). Then, they proceed to try and interpret, critique, and explain the Bible.

Actually, that's not correct. The methodology we rational people use when analyzing anything - whether it's the Bible, or the latest experimental data - is always the same: we start with as few assumptions as possible and go from there.

Here's how it applies in the case of the Bible. You would have us assume the existence of a supernatural writer - or at least inspiration - a priori, to which i ask... why? There's no need to make that assumption yet. There's also no need to assume that there was no supernatural inspiration... yet. No, the rational thing to do is start with an open mind. The Bible might be divinely inspired, or it might not. Let's consider the evidence.

For all of the writings throughout history that we know the sources of reasonably well, there is not one single case of supernatural involvement. Do you think Dianetics was divinely inspired? Unlikely. Why? Because we can trace the progress of the development of Dianetics... we can point out all of the events and influences that resulted in the text... and there's nothing in the text that can't be explained without assuming any supernatural inspiration.

Now, look at the Bible. We know many of its sources reasonably well, at least in the general cultural sense, and can extrapolate many more. We know that many of the stories in the Bible were plagiarized from older religious - like the story of Moses as a baby, which was originally an Egyptian myth that the Jewish slaves co-opted as their own. We can even see evidence of the synthesis of several older religions into the Bible, such as the two different creation myths in Genesis.

But even ignoring all of that... there's just nothing in the Bible that makes it reasonable to assume divine inspiration. It's not all that well written. It's internally contradictory. It's ****** boring as all hell. And there's nothing in there that's even remotely amazing, either stylistically or factually.

The bottom line is that the only way you can find anything "divine" in the Bible is if you put it there yourself. You have to make the a priori assumption that the Bible was divinely inspired... and then self-justify. Obviously, if you make the a priori assumption that the Bible was not divinely inspired, then you'll find evidence that it isn't. So that's wrong, too.

So, here are the options and the results:
  • Assume beforehand that the Bible is not divinely written. This is bad form.
  • Assume beforehand that the Bible is divinely written. This is bad form.
  • Assume nothing, and see what the evidence in the Bible shows. This is the only rational approach. And, if you do it, you find there is no reason to presume divine intervention.

Now, once you get that far you can take the next step - you can hypothesize that there is/isn't divine inspiration in the Bible, and test those hypotheses (only one is falsifiable, though). But that's only if you care enough about the issue to test it in depth. If not - if you just want to examine the Bible itself, for its moral and historical premises - then it offers no reason to presume divine inspiration. Unless you want it to, of course.
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