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A Grammar Question





ninjakannon
Would I use an "is" or an "are" after the following:

Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are / is...

The "are" goes with the first clause while the "is" goes with the second clause but which is correct in this position? Or would it be wrong to phrase it in this way and should the sentence instead be put:

Some of these things are, and indeed the whole thing is, ...


Thanks!
tony
I'd go with the second option since you will definitely not have a problem that way. Not sure how to correctly do your first option... Cheers! Maybe someone who is good with English grammar is here?
ocalhoun
When in a situation like that, use the plurality of the last one, so it would be 'is'. If the plural one was last, you would use 'are'.
ninjakannon
ocalhoun wrote:
When in a situation like that, use the plurality of the last one, so it would be 'is'. If the plural one was last, you would use 'are'.

Do you happen to know why this is the case?

Following your rule I think the sentence probably reads and sounds better. However, using the opposite rule (using the plurality of the first clause) seems to makes sense in that the sub clause acts as an insertion into the main sentence, which is then continued after the end of the clause. Thus, you would use the plural of the first clause. Yet this isn't the case.
Ghost900
I would definitely go with "is" since it sounds better and the "are" sounds messed up.

I don't know much about English Grammar rules so I don't know exactly why it would be the case, I just know it is the case. Very Happy
Raidation
You're all wrong.

He should use "are".


Take a look:

Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are / is...
[half of first clause] [second clause] [other half of first clause]

So the subject of the first clause is "some".
The predicate of the first clause is are/is.

So would you say "Some cookies is dancing." or would you say "Some cookies are dancing."?

Quote:
When in a situation like that, use the plurality of the last one, so it would be 'is'. If the plural one was last, you would use 'are'
.

That's only the rule with phrases, not clauses.
apple
so I learned something tonight Embarassed
Denvis
ninjakannon wrote:
Would I use an "is" or an "are" after the following:

Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are / is...

The "are" goes with the first clause while the "is" goes with the second clause but which is correct in this position? Or would it be wrong to phrase it in this way and should the sentence instead be put:

Some of these things are, and indeed the whole thing is, ...


Thanks!


I'd go with "is" simply because it sounds more correct.
deanhills
ninjakannon wrote:
Would I use an "is" or an "are" after the following:

Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are / is...

The "are" goes with the first clause while the "is" goes with the second clause but which is correct in this position? Or would it be wrong to phrase it in this way and should the sentence instead be put:

Some of these things are, and indeed the whole thing is, ...


Thanks!


I agree with Raidation.
Quote:
Some of these things are, and indeed the whole thing is, ...

When you use the word "things" what are you referring to? Or were you just using "things" as an example?
ninjakannon
Raidation, you sound like you know what you're talking about. Would you happen to have a source on the internet that would verify it? I'm not sure what to search for.

deanhills, it was just an example. I was writing something and decided to add a clause "and indeed the whole thing", then realised I wasn't sure which word was correct following what I had just written.
AftershockVibe
The main problem here is that you have a badly constructed sentence. In fact, you're sticking a clause inside another clause for no apparent reason. Try:

Some of these things are <whatever>. In fact, the whole thing is!
ninjakannon
AftershockVibe wrote:
The main problem here is that you have a badly constructed sentence. In fact, you're sticking a clause inside another clause for no apparent reason. Try:

Some of these things are <whatever>. In fact, the whole thing is!

I can rearrange the words however I like but given this case I would like to know the correct grammar. I'm not asking for a better way to phrase it.
standready
Raidation wrote:

So the subject of the first clause is "some".

Confused Really? I thought "things" would be.

Given the way the sentence is formed, "is" should be correct.
Raidation
My source is my grammar teacher. Wink

You can always stick a clause inside of another. It's called having a complex sentence.

The ice cream, which was tasty, was colored orange

The "which was tasty" part is a subordinate clause. You cannot use "which was tasty" as a complete thought, or sentence, but it has everything you need in a sentence. "Which", which is a relative pronoun, is the subject. "Was", which, obviously is a linking verb, is the predicate. "Tasty" is the predicate adjective, or in other words, the object.


So his sentence:
Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are / is...
"Some of these things" is the first part of the first clause. "And" is a coordinating conjunction. "Indeed the whole thing" is an appositive phrase, not a clause, because it lacks a predicate. "are/is" is the predicate for the first clause.


The reason "some" is the subject of the first clause, and not "things" is because "things" is contained within a prepositional phrase.
ninjakannon
Well that sounds like a pretty trustworthy source! So I'll take your word for it then. Your grammar teacher has taught you well. Smile
deanhills
I found the following on the Web that could be helpful:
http://grammar.about.com/od/il/g/independterm.htm
Vrythramax
There was a request to move this topic to "Languages and Translations", but I feel the topic here is General enough for this forum, and the information contained to be of use to us all. So I'll leave it alone.
ankitdatashn
believe me english and that too grammer is not my arena!!
guissmo
Actually my first answer was "are" but then I was surprised everyone else answered "is".

On sentences like those, I usually ignore everything in between the two commas so that the sentence is as simple as it can get. I think that's the rule.
polly-gone
The second option is correct. You need the are and the is. Because "indeed the whole thing" is an appositive which means you base the plurality on "Some of these things" which would make it "Some of these things, and indeed the whole thing, are...." which sounds unnatural.

Go with "Some of these things are, and indeed the whole thing is...." It sound better.

-Nick Smile Smile Smile
ninjakannon
Yet, polly-gone, other posts in this thread and outside research have lead me to be sure that using "are" is correct in this case. Read Raidation's posts if you don't want to read the whole thread - they're very good on the matter.

I do agree that the second case sounds more natural; however, I now understand that it is not wrong to use the first case and I am [I repeat] not asking for ways to pose the sentence.


Put simply, I think there are two reasons why 'are' is used. Firstly, this part of the sentence is a continuation of the first clause, the second half of it, if you will, so the 'are' is linked with 'things'. Further, the sentence talks of 'things' and then adds another 'thing' (the "whole thing"); so there is a plurality to which the 'is' or 'are' would be referring to and 'are' must therefore be used.

Thanks for your help, everyone! Very Happy


@ Mods: My question has been answered, so this thread can be locked.
polly-gone
@ninjakannon: I may have that backwards.... but I think its just one of those really tricky rules that nobody can agree on. Grammar rules do change as a language evolves. Either way, I would use are and is.

-Nick Smile Smile Smile
ninjakannon
polly-gone wrote:
@ninjakannon: I may have that backwards.... but I think its just one of those really tricky rules that nobody can agree on. Grammar rules do change as a language evolves. Either way, I would use are and is.

I am certain that you use 'are'. It's only tricky if you don't know higher level grammar rules and I have now spoken to someone who does, as has Raidation, and both gave the same answer: use 'are'.

So it is correct to use 'are' in this case. That doesn't mean that it's 'better' to use this case than the other one I suggested or some other phrasing that you think up. But that's not my question.
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