are the body and mind seperate.....
basically i wanted too know your opinions of the mind and body question are they separate, is it just bio electrical data etc...I ask because i was thinking why aren't brain transplants possible unless the actual mind is separate from the biological part...
Your definition of 'mind' is strange...
The way I consider it, the body is the simply physical equipment for the mind.
The mind, basically a powerful computer, runs the body, and performs calculations, stores and retrieves memories, and can do many useful low-level tasks, like drive a car or type.
The thing I like to call 'self' is also known (with somewhat different connotations) as 'soul' or 'consciousness' and several other names... It provides direction for the mind, and a purpose.
In an example, you typing:
1: Self comes up with a thought that it wishes to express on the screen.
2: Mind takes that thought, translates it into words of the language being used, translates the words into letters, and expertly directs the fingers to push the correct keys for those letters... all nearly instantly.
3: Body moves its fingers in the way directed by Mind, which pushes the keys on the keyboard.
The simple answer of why brain transplants aren't possible is that the surgical techniques needed aren't advanced enough... The brain is a fragile thing, and it needs LOTS of intricate connections in order to work. And that isn't likely to change quickly, because there wouldn't be very much popular support for it.
The 'self' I speak of may not be dependent upon biological or mental support (if there's anything to the stories of ghosts, near-death experiences, TM, et cetera). But, in the event of a brain transplant, I think it would continue to associate with the old brain, rather than the old body, as I suspect that it depends on the mind in much the same way as the mind depends on the body.
| Bannik wrote: |
are the body and mind seperate.....
basically i wanted too know your opinions of the mind and body question are they separate, is it just bio electrical data etc...I ask because i was thinking why aren't brain transplants possible unless the actual mind is separate from the biological part... |
This is just guessing on my part, as obviously I am not a scientist or medical expert, but for me they are one. The workings of the brain and how it interrelates physically with the rest of the body has still not been completely mastered however, so hence it may take a while for a brain to be successfully transplanted. Science and the medical profession still have lots of progress to make before they get to that stage.these boths are one unit...
they are not separate from one another..
if they are seprate ...we cant do "inorder" our daily life routine work
so thats my opinion
what do you think about my opinion...?
plz reply
| rajpk wrote: |
these boths are one unit...
they are not separate from one another..
if they are seprate ...we cant do "inorder" our daily life routine work
so thats my opinion
what do you think about my opinion...?
plz reply |
They are not one unit. They are separate units, interconnected. The connections between them are essential for us to function, but that doesn't mean that they are all the same 'unit'.I also go for separation - but I don't feel like the mind is connected with a spirit directly.
Intelligence is everywhere in the body I presume - not only in the mind...
From a purely physically scientific point of view I would say same, brain tissue is connected with the body just like any other organ or part of.
However from a philosophical and perhaps religious point of view I would separate the mind from the body because what goes on within the brain is entire different in nature than mere physical tissue.
| Bluedoll wrote: |
From a purely physically scientific point of view I would say same, brain tissue is connected with the body just like any other organ or part of.
However from a philosophical and perhaps religious point of view I would separate the mind from the body because what goes on within the brain is entire different in nature than mere physical tissue. |
It seems obvious and clear that the mind is an emergent phenomenon of the physical brain. We can, indeed, test this assertion by stimulating or suppressing (chemically and/or electromagnetically) specific areas of the brain to 'interfere' with the different functions of mind (logic, emotion etc). Give me a couple of powerful electromagnets and I'll give you a spiritual experience. | Bannik wrote: |
| basically I wanted too know your opinions.. |
I think it is wonderful how the mind and body work together and how ideas can float around the internet like an informational body separated from our personal minds but metaphorically connected together by lines of electromagnetic impulses for us to interpret. We think about things and can get other peoples opinions, it is so great!
| Bikerman wrote: |
| It seems obvious and clear . . . I'll give you a spiritual experience |
Unfortuilly some brain transplants arse just not possible because compatiblity issues exsist. Maybe there are things we don’t understand but can always give our own opinion and leave it at that.I disagree with Bikerman. While it may be true and "obvious" that the individual mind has physical basis, and that our mental experiences happen through biochemical events in the body, I am forced to believe that Mind itself is bigger than just some reactions. There's much more to it...
Some more esoteric thinkers have taught about something called a "Universal Mind." Our minds are merely parts of a larger, Universal Mind. Others talk about something called a "Meme." Meme-theory, while materially based, is a similar idea. I think something like this is probably a part of the reality of "mind."
I don't really understand what is Mind, but I think it is definitely something bigger than my little mind can fathom. I can't believe that it is only an emergent phenomenon of the physical brain" as Bikerman eloquently put it, because I've seen some evidence that there may be deeper causes for our mental phenomena. While it is plainly true that our mental states are biochemically based, that does not rule out any more primary reasons for these events. To clarify, it's like saying "poppies are red because of biochemical reactions in the petals, but they are also red because red light is reflected from chemicals in the petals, and poppies can only exist, and be red, because there is a Sun to provide them energy to grow with. And don't forget the people who planted them!"
| peaceupnorth wrote: |
I disagree with Bikerman. While it may be true and "obvious" that the individual mind has physical basis, and that our mental experiences happen through biochemical events in the body, I am forced to believe that Mind itself is bigger than just some reactions. There's much more to it...
Some more esoteric thinkers have taught about something called a "Universal Mind." Our minds are merely parts of a larger, Universal Mind. Others talk about something called a "Meme." Meme-theory, while materially based, is a similar idea. I think something like this is probably a part of the reality of "mind."
I don't really understand what is Mind, but I think it is definitely something bigger than my little mind can fathom. I can't believe that it is only an emergent phenomenon of the physical brain" as Bikerman eloquently put it, because I've seen some evidence that there may be deeper causes for our mental phenomena. While it is plainly true that our mental states are biochemically based, that does not rule out any more primary reasons for these events. To clarify, it's like saying "poppies are red because of biochemical reactions in the petals, but they are also red because red light is reflected from chemicals in the petals, and poppies can only exist, and be red, because there is a Sun to provide them energy to grow with. And don't forget the people who planted them!" |
OK, I like your thinking. There is "me" and I'm different from other people. Maybe I see the differences through my mind. So what do you think happens when you take your last breath and the body dies? Do you think the mind as you see it continues? In the cases of people really close to me and who died, and then having to check up on their bodies to identify them, I just could not recognize them. For example, my grand mother had a very proud bearing, and a very distinct carriage of herself. All of a sudden she was just a dead and decalying body. Where did the "spirit" or whatever it is called go when she passed on?Don't ask me, deanhills, because I cannot say that I know. I am interested in finding out the truth about all this... while I'm still alive, mind you....
I'm pretty sure there is a spirit distinct from the body... It can be seen and felt, by someone who takes the time to turn inside and transcend the physical. A challenging task, but do-able.
But I'm also sure that if I do happen to find the truth about the soul, the mind and the body... there will still be those sneering folk who will deny any of this is possible, and cling to the materialistic interpretation of reality, and nothing I say will convince them. It doesn't matter, anyway... human beings are like blades of grass... here today, gone tomorrow... and our opinions are just as inconsequential.
| peaceupnorth wrote: |
| But I'm also sure that if I do happen to find the truth about the soul, the mind and the body... there will still be those sneering folk who will deny any of this is possible, and cling to the materialistic interpretation of reality, and nothing I say will convince them. |
I have a feeling that if you do find the truth about the soul, the mind and the body, that no one else's opinion would matter to you any longer. You would be open to all other opinions in a completely undiscriminating way and you would be completely at peace - nirvana.The question should be: Are body and soul different? Yes they are. Soul is not the mind. Mind is in your brain. Soul is the real you. Your body is temporary. If there is soul it is possible that you can have rebirth. So there is no reason the abrahamic religions not believe there is no rebirth and that death of body is the end. This is a higher truth.
| supernova1987a wrote: |
| So there is no reason the abrahamic religions not believe there is no rebirth and that death of body is the end. |
The 'Abrahamic religions' don't think that death is the end either. They believe that instead of being reborn in this world, you'll be 'reborn' in one of two (or three) other worlds, that your time in this world is sort of training, or a test to determine which of those other worlds you belong in.The body and the mind are very separate the body is basically made of the elements and the mind nobody knows what it is made up of in fact we don't even know if there is a thing called mind we just call something the mind!
| yagnyavalkya wrote: |
| we just call something the mind! |
If we call something the mind, then there must be a thing called the mind, no? (Even if that thing turns out to be a grapefruit.)
The mind is the 'software' that runs on the body's hardware. The soul is the 'user' of that 'software'.
Many 'users', however, let the 'software' run almost entirely in automatic mode, making the mind the component in control.The mind is an emergent phenomenon, arising from the physical brain, and comprising our self consciousness, emotions, logic, feelings etc.
The soul is a mythical religious entity with no basis in physical reality.
| Bikerman wrote: |
The mind is an emergent phenomenon, arising from the physical brain, and comprising our self consciousness, emotions, logic, feelings etc.
The soul is a mythical religious entity with no basis in physical reality. |
I don't really see much of an issue with what you said. It is true that the mind is manifested through the physical apparatus of the brain, and isn't perceptible without a live human being. But is that all there is to it?
And the concept of an immortal soul, certainly, is surrounded by myths and legends. It isn't a physical entity, both believers and skeptics will agree on this. For most of us humans, our reality is entirely physical, thus the realm of the metaphysical remains only theoretical. Or, as some would say, mythical.
However, I cannot believe as you do, Bikerman, that there is no metaphysical reality.
To believe as you do would mean forgetting so many experiences which cannot be forgotten, that occurred without any altering of my waking state, or my brain, but simply by keeping the company of those adept in meditation and spirituality. It was hard to believe, then, but now the opposite is true.
I'm curious, Bikerman, what are your thoughts about death? If there is no soul, and nothing after, does the thought frighten you? | peaceupnorth wrote: |
| I'm curious, Bikerman, what are your thoughts about death? If there is no soul, and nothing after, does the thought frighten you? |
Not really. The thought of a painful death is quite frightening, but death itself holds no terrors. The universe managed without me for billions of years and I think it will carry on fine without me.
I think Epicurus had it about right:
"Where death is not I am, where death is I am not"I think that regardless of one's beliefs about the soul, or anything metaphysical, contemplating the inevitable end of one's mind and body is a useful and helpful practice. It gives a healthy perspective on life and living, don't you agree?
| Bikerman wrote: |
The mind is an emergent phenomenon, arising from the physical brain, and comprising our self consciousness, emotions, logic, feelings etc.
The soul is a mythical religious entity with no basis in physical reality. |
ok but self consciousness, emotions, logic, feelings are not physical....they are things we created too suit our needs, the thing i dont get is how did we get LOGIC and emotions like love...did the mind suddenly make them or was it already built in....lets say the brain is physical and all our actions are chemicle reactions...what decided that the monkey ancestors needed a mind as powerful as a humans...or did all those thing already exist and we just lived the longest and have evolved too use them...
this leads me too ask me if intelligence is part of evolutions goal....we seem too be the most domiant race would mean the purpose of evolution is too gain higher intelligence and why would that be its goal... | Bannik wrote: |
| ok but self consciousness, emotions, logic, feelings are not physical....they are things we created too suit our needs, |
I don't think so. We certainly didn't 'create' consciousness, emotions, logic and feelings.
| Quote: |
| the thing i dont get is how did we get LOGIC and emotions like love...did the mind suddenly make them or was it already built in....lets say the brain is physical and all our actions are chemicle reactions...what decided that the monkey ancestors needed a mind as powerful as a humans...or did all those thing already exist and we just lived the longest and have evolved too use them... |
That is what I mean by 'emergent'. There is little doubt that other animals display what we would call emotion. Some also use a fairly high level of logic. I don't think there isn't something qualitatively unique in a human brain, because it seems that higher primates are on the track as well. That implies, to me at least, that once the brain reaches a certain size then 'mind' begins to develop fairly rapidly.
| Quote: |
| this leads me too ask me if intelligence is part of evolutions goal....we seem too be the most domiant race would mean the purpose of evolution is too gain higher intelligence and why would that be its goal... |
Evolution has no goal. There is no end-point to evolution, no design, no plan, no purpose.
