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Right Wing Terrorism out of control and on the increase?





handfleisch
Murdering doctors, attacking the Holocaust museum in DC, recruiting at Tea Party protests, getting encouragement from FOX News and talk show hosts. Is a wave of right wing terrorism exploding around us?

Both of the recent right wing terrorists, despite being described as lone nuts, were well connected and well known in various right wing circles. The doctor killer was a familiar member of the anti-abortionist Christian extremist crowd, and the museum attacker was a neo-Nazi with long ties to the US neo-Nazi infrastructure. Stormfront, the main white nationalist organization, has been recruiting at the Tea Parties and plans to increase their activities at the next ones. FOX News has been nailed for encouraging hate specifically against the doctor that was killed, and Limbaugh and other talk show hosts have been race-baiting for years.

What's behind the right wing violence? Is the right wing trying to tear the USA apart with acts of terrorism?
Solon_Poledourus
My theory on the far right is this:
They believe they have a monopoly on "patriotism". So everything they do is patriotic, by definition. They have been pushing the bounds a little further over a long period of time, until they feel confident that a bold move can be made to outright promote nationalist hate, extremist religious persecution, etc. All under the guise of being patriotic. Because apparently, anything those liberal hippies do can't possibly be considered patriotic.

It's just a theory.
liljp617
(Violent) racism and acts existed and were rampant before modern day right wing groups?

Attacks on and death threats towards abortion clinics/doctors is nothing new by any means.
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:
FOX News has been nailed for encouraging hate specifically against the doctor that was killed,

Not to quibble over the details, but I thought it was only the O'Rielly show that you were accusing of that... Question Confused
handfleisch wrote:
and Limbaugh and other talk show hosts have been race-baiting for years.

As is their constitutionally guaranteed right. This is important in that it counterbalances the movement towards making any criticisms about minorities taboo.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
Murdering doctors, attacking the Holocaust museum in DC, recruiting at Tea Party protests, getting encouragement from FOX News and talk show hosts. Is a wave of right wing terrorism exploding around us?

Both of the recent right wing terrorists, despite being described as lone nuts, were well connected and well known in various right wing circles. The doctor killer was a familiar member of the anti-abortionist Christian extremist crowd, and the museum attacker was a neo-Nazi with long ties to the US neo-Nazi infrastructure. Stormfront, the main white nationalist organization, has been recruiting at the Tea Parties and plans to increase their activities at the next ones. FOX News has been nailed for encouraging hate specifically against the doctor that was killed, and Limbaugh and other talk show hosts have been race-baiting for years.

What's behind the right wing violence? Is the right wing trying to tear the USA apart with acts of terrorism?
Perhaps they feel frustrated that they are not being heard - they do not have a real voice and this is the only way they can get attention? I don't think the right-wingers are the only ones that feel that way. I don't believe in the violence though, and I wonder how long it will be tolerated until Obama has to take action in the "national interest". Possibly he has been avoiding action, as that would put his own life in double danger than what it already is, as well as create civil unrest and escalation of terrorist activities?
Solon_Poledourus
ocalhoun wrote:
Not to quibble over the details, but I thought it was only the O'Rielly show that you were accusing of that...
As far as I know, O'Reilley was the only one on FOX that had been making these statements(at least to any great extent).
Quote:
As is their constitutionally guaranteed right. This is important in that it counterbalances the movement towards making any criticisms about minorities taboo.
As much as I agree with you, it is a fine line between being a counterbalance and being a bigot when it comes to racial comments. I don't think I have heard Limpballs say anything overtly racist, but he sure does come close sometimes.
handfleisch
liljp617 wrote:
(Violent) racism and acts existed and were rampant before modern day right wing groups?

Attacks on and death threats towards abortion clinics/doctors is nothing new by any means.


That's an important question and comment. I would say modern right wing groups are only a continuation of the right wing groups that have long existed. Definitely there is a continuity in the existence of far right extremist groups willing to commit acts of violence on a small or large scale. There are separate factions and new groups and former groups, to be sure, but there is also a lot of overlap. Right wing/fascist activism in the US came out of the end of the civil war in reaction to the successful abolition of slavery (the domestic terrorism of the lynching epidemic from the late 1800s and early 20th century), reaction to the success of Roosevelt and his New Deal, and reaction to the Civil Rights movement. Since then, whether their excuse or cause was anti-Communism, anti-abortion, they have fought to overturn the progressive achievements of the last century or so, either socially, politically, or economically.
Moonspider
handfleisch wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
(Violent) racism and acts existed and were rampant before modern day right wing groups?

Attacks on and death threats towards abortion clinics/doctors is nothing new by any means.


That's an important question and comment. I would say modern right wing groups are only a continuation of the right wing groups that have long existed. Definitely there is a continuity in the existence of far right extremist groups willing to commit acts of violence on a small or large scale. There are separate factions and new groups and former groups, to be sure, but there is also a lot of overlap. Right wing/fascist activism in the US came out of the end of the civil war in reaction to the successful abolition of slavery (the domestic terrorism of the lynching epidemic from the late 1800s and early 20th century), reaction to the success of Roosevelt and his New Deal, and reaction to the Civil Rights movement. Since then, whether their excuse or cause was anti-Communism, anti-abortion, they have fought to overturn the progressive achievements of the last century or so, either socially, politically, or economically.


Just to clarify, the abolition of slavery occurred under a Republican administration and the racist violence of the late 19th and early 20th Century was part of the Democractic party's overthrow of reconstruction Republican governments in the South and the following entrenchment of the Democratic party in the South that lasted into the mid- to late 20th Century.

BTW, Roosevelt's New Deal success could be the subject of an entire thread. One can argue that it actually exacerbated the Great Depression.

On another note (sorry, I keep editing), by definition right wing people cannot be fascists. Fascists (like Nazism) are leftist movements, not politically right.

Respectfully,
M
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
(Violent) racism and acts existed and were rampant before modern day right wing groups?

Attacks on and death threats towards abortion clinics/doctors is nothing new by any means.


That's an important question and comment. I would say modern right wing groups are only a continuation of the right wing groups that have long existed. Definitely there is a continuity in the existence of far right extremist groups willing to commit acts of violence on a small or large scale. There are separate factions and new groups and former groups, to be sure, but there is also a lot of overlap. Right wing/fascist activism in the US came out of the end of the civil war in reaction to the successful abolition of slavery (the domestic terrorism of the lynching epidemic from the late 1800s and early 20th century), reaction to the success of Roosevelt and his New Deal, and reaction to the Civil Rights movement. Since then, whether their excuse or cause was anti-Communism, anti-abortion, they have fought to overturn the progressive achievements of the last century or so, either socially, politically, or economically.
Good point. As you mentioned in other threads, this is not only prevalent in the US, but in Europe as well, also in all other parts of the world, when the economy is not that good. I fear however in the US the election of Obama could prove to have had an even more negative affect from the rightists' point of view. There does not seem to be any common ground between him and the rightist parties. Which makes polorization and confrontation a greater possibility. Hopefully Obama has lots of security for him and his family, as common sense says his life has to be very much in danger.
Moonspider
handfleisch wrote:
Murdering doctors, attacking the Holocaust museum in DC, recruiting at Tea Party protests, getting encouragement from FOX News and talk show hosts. Is a wave of right wing terrorism exploding around us?

Both of the recent right wing terrorists, despite being described as lone nuts, were well connected and well known in various right wing circles.


So you believe von Brunn, who among other things hated Fox News, believed 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by President Bush, who hated the Weekly Standard, and who favored socialism was influenced into violence by some of the very people and organizations he despised?

R,
M
Solon_Poledourus
That crackpot hated everyone...
Quote:
Law enforcement sources told WTTG/Fox Washington that during a search of a car that is believed to belong to James von Brunn -- the alleged shooter in the fatal Holocaust Museum attack -- investigators found a notebook with information about six to nine locations in the D.C. area, including the National Holocaust Museum.


Other locations on the list included the U.S. Capitol, the White House, the Washington Post, and a FOX News location.

Investigators followed up at each of the locations, trying to find out if there were any sightings of the suspect or any correspondence.

And this comes from the Huffington Post.
I wouldn't go so far as to call von Brunn a "leftist", but he sure wasn't a "right wing" nut either. He was a white supremacist, who hated the government and everyone else who wasn't like him. Half of me wants him to die in the hospital, but the smarter half wants him to fully recover so he can stand trial. The only thing he really had in common with right wing psychos is his hatred of Obama.
handfleisch
The guy was far to the right of Bush and Fox News and therefore was against them as not right enough; that doesn't make him a leftist, fer krissakes. He probably hated them for having African Americans in the cabinet and on the TV. But he was a total white-supremacist, Holocaust-denying, old school far right fascist.
Moonspider
handfleisch wrote:
The guy was far to the right of Bush and Fox News and therefore was against them as not right enough; that doesn't make him a leftist, fer krissakes. He probably hated them for having African Americans in the cabinet and on the TV. But he was a total white-supremacist, Holocaust-denying, old school far right fascist.


I find political labels somewhat confusing, so I did some research on the variety of political spectrum models.

So a far-right fascist would be someone who believes in a very authoritarian government with an absolute free market?

R,
M
Solon_Poledourus
Moonspider wrote:
I find political labels somewhat confusing
That's why I prefer much simpler terms. Like "prick" and "jerkoff".
Quote:
So a far-right fascist would be someone who believes in a very authoritarian government with an absolute free market?
Heh... sounds like Poledourustan to me...
handfleisch
Moonspider wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
The guy was far to the right of Bush and Fox News and therefore was against them as not right enough; that doesn't make him a leftist, fer krissakes. He probably hated them for having African Americans in the cabinet and on the TV. But he was a total white-supremacist, Holocaust-denying, old school far right fascist.


I find political labels somewhat confusing, so I did some research on the variety of political spectrum models.

So a far-right fascist would be someone who believes in a very authoritarian government with an absolute free market?

R,
M


Strict and complete definitions are outside the ken. The point is that the entire mileau of neo-Nazis and white supremacists, from where the Holocaust shooter came from, is squarely in the realm of the far right. Also in the that realm (but not so extreme as to be neo-Nazi) are the Christian Right anti-abortion extremists from where the Tiller murderer came from. Both incidents are, easily, examples of far-right domestic terrorism.
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:

Strict and complete definitions are outside the ken.

So, when you use a word, it means what you say it means, right?
At least we seem to have cured you of using the term 'wingnut', though I'm not sure 'fascist' is a better replacement.
handfleisch
ocalhoun wrote:
handfleisch wrote:

Strict and complete definitions are outside the ken.

So, when you use a word, it means what you say it means, right?
At least we seem to have cured you of using the term 'wingnut', though I'm not sure 'fascist' is a better replacement.


troll
handfleisch
Remember how the mainstream right, including several Republicans in Congress, whined about the DHS report on right wing domestic terrorism? This tragic episode with the gunman at the Holocaust museum shows the DHS report was really on target.

From the report http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf fixed on edit

Quote:
DHS/I&A assesses that lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States. Information from law enforcement and nongovernmental organizations indicates lone wolves and small terrorist cells have shown intent—and, in some cases, the capability—to commit violent acts.
...DHS/I&A has concluded that white supremacist lone wolves pose the most significant domestic terrorist threat because of their low profile and autonomy—separate from any formalized group—which hampers warning efforts.
...Similarly, recent state and municipal law enforcement reporting has warned of the dangers of rightwing extremists embracing the tactics of “leaderless resistance” and of lone wolves carrying out acts of violence.
handfleisch
Update: More violence and murder from the right wing infrastructure of the USA, this time from the phobic vigilantes of the "Minutemen" along the US-Mexican border. Their "Camp Vigilante"sounds like a terrorist training ground.
Quote:

MINUTEMEN LEADER ARRESTED IN MURDER OF 9-YEAR-OLD TRAINED AT EAST COUNTY MINUTEMEN CAMP

June 14, 2009 (San Diego’s East County) – Shawna Forde, leader of Minutemen America Defense(MAD), has been arrested along with two men and charged with double homicide in a home invasion. The victims included a nine-year-old girl. Forde has attended training at Camp Vigilante, a high-desert training camp operated by Minuteman Civil Defense near Boulevard in San Diego’s East County in 2008, East County Magazine has learned. photo: Forde in East County, courtesy of Campo Minutemen. A second suspect arrested also has ties to Minutemen Civil Defense Corps (MCDC), which operates a Minutemen training facility in East County.
...
“These Minutemen are violent vigilante groups as I’ve always said, including groups of people in East County,” Enrique Morones, founder of Border Angels in San Diego and a leader in the immigrant rights movement, told East County Magazine. ”Their motivation is hate,” he said, warning that hate speech and vigilantism can lead to violence and in this case, the tragic death of an innocent child. “They have been in the Campo area an at meetings these are part of the racist vigilante minutemen there are also some neo-Nazis in East County now,” he added., “The authorities have been advised.”
...
Congressmen Duncan Hunter (R-Alpine) took $10,000 in political contributions from The Minuteman PAC, the political action arm of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC). The MCDC is described as “a nativist extremist group whose members conduct armed patrols of the border” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization which tracks hate crimes and hate-related groups nationwide.

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1419
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
Update: More violence and murder from the right wing infrastructure of the USA, this time from the phobic vigilantes of the "Minutemen" along the US-Mexican border. Their "Camp Vigilante"sounds like a terrorist training ground.
Quote:

MINUTEMEN LEADER ARRESTED IN MURDER OF 9-YEAR-OLD TRAINED AT EAST COUNTY MINUTEMEN CAMP

June 14, 2009 (San Diego’s East County) – Shawna Forde, leader of Minutemen America Defense(MAD), has been arrested along with two men and charged with double homicide in a home invasion. The victims included a nine-year-old girl. Forde has attended training at Camp Vigilante, a high-desert training camp operated by Minuteman Civil Defense near Boulevard in San Diego’s East County in 2008, East County Magazine has learned. photo: Forde in East County, courtesy of Campo Minutemen. A second suspect arrested also has ties to Minutemen Civil Defense Corps (MCDC), which operates a Minutemen training facility in East County.
...
“These Minutemen are violent vigilante groups as I’ve always said, including groups of people in East County,” Enrique Morones, founder of Border Angels in San Diego and a leader in the immigrant rights movement, told East County Magazine. ”Their motivation is hate,” he said, warning that hate speech and vigilantism can lead to violence and in this case, the tragic death of an innocent child. “They have been in the Campo area an at meetings these are part of the racist vigilante minutemen there are also some neo-Nazis in East County now,” he added., “The authorities have been advised.”
...
Congressmen Duncan Hunter (R-Alpine) took $10,000 in political contributions from The Minuteman PAC, the political action arm of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC). The MCDC is described as “a nativist extremist group whose members conduct armed patrols of the border” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization which tracks hate crimes and hate-related groups nationwide.

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1419
Wow, San Diego! I thought the Rightists Groups were outside California? Scary. I love San Diego. What's wrong with these people? Twisted Evil
handfleisch
deanhills wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
Update: More violence and murder from the right wing infrastructure of the USA, this time from the phobic vigilantes of the "Minutemen" along the US-Mexican border. Their "Camp Vigilante"sounds like a terrorist training ground.
Quote:

MINUTEMEN LEADER ARRESTED IN MURDER OF 9-YEAR-OLD TRAINED AT EAST COUNTY MINUTEMEN CAMP

June 14, 2009 (San Diego’s East County) – Shawna Forde, leader of Minutemen America Defense(MAD), has been arrested along with two men and charged with double homicide in a home invasion. The victims included a nine-year-old girl. Forde has attended training at Camp Vigilante, a high-desert training camp operated by Minuteman Civil Defense near Boulevard in San Diego’s East County in 2008, East County Magazine has learned. photo: Forde in East County, courtesy of Campo Minutemen. A second suspect arrested also has ties to Minutemen Civil Defense Corps (MCDC), which operates a Minutemen training facility in East County.
...
“These Minutemen are violent vigilante groups as I’ve always said, including groups of people in East County,” Enrique Morones, founder of Border Angels in San Diego and a leader in the immigrant rights movement, told East County Magazine. ”Their motivation is hate,” he said, warning that hate speech and vigilantism can lead to violence and in this case, the tragic death of an innocent child. “They have been in the Campo area an at meetings these are part of the racist vigilante minutemen there are also some neo-Nazis in East County now,” he added., “The authorities have been advised.”
...
Congressmen Duncan Hunter (R-Alpine) took $10,000 in political contributions from The Minuteman PAC, the political action arm of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC). The MCDC is described as “a nativist extremist group whose members conduct armed patrols of the border” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization which tracks hate crimes and hate-related groups nationwide.

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1419
Wow, San Diego! I thought the Rightists Groups were outside California? Scary. I love San Diego. What's wrong with these people? Twisted Evil

Yes, unfortunately San Diego is a very conservative place with plenty of right wingers and also a lot of anti-Mexican attitudes among the people of non-color.
Solon_Poledourus
handfleisch wrote:
Yes, unfortunately San Diego is a very conservative place with plenty of right wingers and also a lot of anti-Mexican attitudes among the people of non-color.
Sad. San Diego is such a beautiful place, and this kind of thing just detracts from that. I stayed there for a short while when I was 16 and even back then I saw alot of anti-Mexican and even anti-Asian attitudes.
deanhills
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
Yes, unfortunately San Diego is a very conservative place with plenty of right wingers and also a lot of anti-Mexican attitudes among the people of non-color.
Sad. San Diego is such a beautiful place, and this kind of thing just detracts from that. I stayed there for a short while when I was 16 and even back then I saw alot of anti-Mexican and even anti-Asian attitudes.
I didn't see them there .... where were they? I never knew there was an "East side" of Rightists? Think we should send a militia there straight away ... Laughing Seriously man, this sucks badly! Hope someone will do something about this.
Solon_Poledourus
deanhills wrote:
I didn't see them there .... where were they? I never knew there was an "East side" of Rightists? Think we should send a militia there straight away ... Laughing Seriously man, this sucks badly! Hope someone will do something about this.
Progress is the enemy of bigotry. As long as we make sure kids get educated and the justice system treats people fairly, this kind of thing will diminish with time. These people who shot the little kid should be executed.
handfleisch
Another thing the Republicans whined about in the DHS report about right wing domestic terrorism but turns out to be true:
Quote:

Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.

The lax regulations have also opened the military's doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists and gang members — with drastic consequences. Some neo-Nazis have been charged with crimes inside the military, and others have been linked to recruitment efforts for the white right. A recent Department of Homeland Security report, "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," stated: "The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today." Many white supremacists join the Army to secure training for, as they see it, a future domestic race war. Others claim to be shooting Iraqis not to pursue the military's strategic goals but because killing "hajjis" is their duty as white militants.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/06/15/neo_nazis_army/
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
Another thing the Republicans whined about in the DHS report about right wing domestic terrorism but turns out to be true:
Quote:

Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.

The lax regulations have also opened the military's doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists and gang members — with drastic consequences. Some neo-Nazis have been charged with crimes inside the military, and others have been linked to recruitment efforts for the white right. A recent Department of Homeland Security report, "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," stated: "The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today." Many white supremacists join the Army to secure training for, as they see it, a future domestic race war. Others claim to be shooting Iraqis not to pursue the military's strategic goals but because killing "hajjis" is their duty as white militants.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/06/15/neo_nazis_army/
What would you suggest would be the right solution for this?
Solon_Poledourus
handfleisch wrote:
Another thing the Republicans whined about in the DHS report about right wing domestic terrorism but turns out to be true:
The military, like any other organization with a large number of people, has always had it's bad apples. The problem with this growing number comes from the desperation of the military to recruit more people, which is difficult when so many people have become distrustful of military and government in general. So they aren't as discriminating in the recruitment process as they should be.

A good solution to this would be to tie in ocalhouns immigration idea. There are millions of people coming from other countries, wanting to become Americans. Why not offer citizenship in exchange for military service? Immigrants would get training in various areas through military service. Our military would be populated by people who actually want to be Americans, rather than a bunch of people who are ashamed of at least one aspect of their country(that second part is directed at the skinheads and gang members, not the majority who are great people serving this nation). If we did that, then the military could afford to discharge it's bad apples as well as be more discriminating in it's recruitment.
Bikerman
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
A good solution to this would be to tie in ocalhouns immigration idea. There are millions of people coming from other countries, wanting to become Americans. Why not offer citizenship in exchange for military service? Immigrants would get training in various areas through military service. Our military would be populated by people who actually want to be Americans, rather than a bunch of people who are ashamed of at least one aspect of their country(that second part is directed at the skinheads and gang members, not the majority who are great people serving this nation). If we did that, then the military could afford to discharge it's bad apples as well as be more discriminating in it's recruitment.

It has been tried before - check the Roman Empire (decline and fall).
It was also a theme in a sci-fi film Starship Troopers).
Solon_Poledourus
Bikerman wrote:
It has been tried before - check the Roman Empire (decline and fall).
I don't think that it would automatically fail just because the Romans failed. There are countries right now that require mandatory civil/military service, and they are doing just fine.
Quote:
It was also a theme in a sci-fi film Starship Troopers).
Book, dammit. I refuse to believe that movie was ever made. *vomit*
Bikerman
I don't say it would fail (though I am not convinced it would work either).
The closest thing I can think of today would probably be Switzerland (which, incidentally, is where Heinlein got the idea for the book from....)
Solon_Poledourus
Bikerman wrote:
I don't say it would fail (though I am not convinced it would work either).
An assumption on my part. I'm not sure it would work, but I think it would be worth a shot.
Quote:
The closest thing I can think of today would probably be Switzerland (which, incidentally, is where Heinlein got the idea for the book from....)
Yes, and a great book it was. Not a bad country too, from what I hear.
Bikerman
Hmm, but difficult to compare Switzerland with the US. The Swiss are not famous for using their army abroad, as is the US, despite having the second largest army in the world (per capita) after Israel....
deanhills
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
Why not offer citizenship in exchange for military service? Immigrants would get training in various areas through military service.
Betcha El Qaeda will be first to line up .... Laughing I thought that one had to be a citizen of the country in order to qualify for the military? My instincts say that is a good rule.
Solon_Poledourus
deanhills wrote:
Betcha El Qaeda will be first to line up
Background checks are a good thing.
Quote:
I thought that one had to be a citizen of the country in order to qualify for the military?
I would offer citizenship in exchange for military service. It would be part of my immigration plan.
deanhills
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Betcha El Qaeda will be first to line up
Background checks are a good thing.
What would the right-wingers have to say about this, as well as all the other people who are unemployed?

Solon_Poledourus wrote:
I would offer citizenship in exchange for military service. It would be part of my immigration plan.
Hmmmm ..... maybe US citizens are better? But for argument sake, wonder which populations would be the ones that would be the most likely to be accepted? Maybe it will be like the Green Card Lottery, and a percentage from here and there, and only certain countries' citizens are allowed to apply. You know, once the Government gets involved in your and Ocalhoun's good ideas, it will in all probability turn into a good nightmare. Smile
Solon_Poledourus
deanhills wrote:
What would the right-wingers have to say about this, as well as all the other people who are unemployed?
The unemployed have every right to join the military.
Quote:
You know, once the Government gets involved in your and Ocalhoun's good ideas, it will in all probability turn into a good nightmare.
Which is why people should migrate on over to Poledourustan(once it actually exists).
ocalhoun
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
Why not offer citizenship in exchange for military service?

I'm pretty sure that's already being done. A couple of the people I went to basic training with were not American citizens, and were joining in order to get citizenship.

One of them was from India, so 'fresh off the boat' that he could barely speak the language. He had failed out of India's fighter pilot school, so he moved to the USA and enlisted in the US air force.
(No comments about lower standards please; he enlisted: only officers can be pilots.)
Once he graduated basic training, he got full citizenship.

*edit*

As for the risks inherent in recruiting 'foreigners' into the military, these people will probably not be able to get a security clearance at all. It's a very exhaustive examination and investigation, and any relations with foreign nations is one of the main things they want to know about.

For that matter, it would also be very difficult for any Neo-Nazi or organized white supremacist to get a security clearance. Unless they were very secretive about their involvement from the moment they joined (as in nobody at all knows about it), it'll be found out, and the clearance will likely be denied... especially if they didn't declare that affiliation beforehand.
Solon_Poledourus
ocalhoun wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's already being done. A couple of the people I went to basic training with were not American citizens, and were joining in order to get citizenship.

One of them was from India, so 'fresh off the boat' that he could barely speak the language. He had failed out of India's fighter pilot school, so he moved to the USA and enlisted in the US air force.
(No comments about lower standards please; he enlisted: only officers can be pilots.)
Once he graduated basic training, he got full citizenship.
That's pretty cool. I had no idea we had a deal like that going on here. I wonder why more people aren't joining that way. I mean, all the guys sneaking in from Mexico, alot of whom are in decent enough shape to survive the Sonoran desert of Arizona for days without much supplies. Seems like they should ask where the recruitment offices are at.
handfleisch
If memory serves, one of the first US soldiers KIA in Iraq was a non-citizen. Columbian, I believe. There's already a sort of enlist-for-citizenship deal going on.
Solon_Poledourus
handfleisch wrote:
If memory serves, one of the first US soldiers KIA in Iraq was a non-citizen. Columbian, I believe. There's already a sort of enlist-for-citizenship deal going on.
Seems like this is something I should know, but for some reason don't. Oh well... can't expect to fit 5 gallons of knowledge in a shot glass of a brain, right?
gandalfthegrey
I am the farthest thing from what you could call a right-wing supporter, but aren't you getting a little carried way by saying that "right wing terrorism is on the rise" when one museum guard was killed by a nutty racist old man and one abortion doctor was killed this year. I don't get your comparison to the Tea Party protests or Fox News either. I actually support the Tea Party protests, as they have legitimate concerns beyond just taxes.

The only right wing terrorism that I can recall recently is the Bush Administration's invasion and occupation of Iraq, but then again we have a media that refuses to call military action taken by a country as terrorism.
handfleisch
gandalfthegrey wrote:
I am the farthest thing from what you could call a right-wing supporter, but aren't you getting a little carried way by saying that "right wing terrorism is on the rise" when one museum guard was killed by a nutty racist old man and one abortion doctor was killed this year. ...
The only right wing terrorism that I can recall recently is the Bush Administration's invasion and occupation of Iraq, but then again we have a media that refuses to call military action taken by a country as terrorism.


Well, the term terrorism is used to describe violence by individual or groups for political ends. If you scroll up, you will see the political and group-support context for these two major incidents which occurred in a short period of time (hence the "on the rise" with question marks). Some of the anti-abortion groups were definitely on the terrorism watch list when they were doing a lot of clinic bombings, for example. If these two incidents had been committed by members or associates of Al Queda, we would definitely have the word terrorism used and hyped-up 24/7 coverage in the media, maybe with a special new logo even.

gandalfthegrey wrote:
I don't get your comparison to the Tea Party protests or Fox News either.


It wasn't a comparison so much as an observation. If you scroll up, you'll see that far right extremist groups, like the ones the museum gunman was influenced by and palled around with, are using the Tea Parties for recruitment. Fox News is being mentioned in connection with commentator O'Reilly's specific provocative and inflammatory language used against the doctor (with incredible, purely fictional high-number totals on the numbers of abortions performed and comparing him to Stalin) before the murder occurred.

gandalfthegrey wrote:
The only right wing terrorism that I can recall recently is the Bush Administration's invasion and occupation of Iraq, but then again we have a media that refuses to call military action taken by a country as terrorism.
Well they sometimes use the term "state-sponsored terrorism" when someone else does it.
ronbuice
I am always amazed at how some people love to call out FOX News as a contributor to criminal activity. I wonder if these same people watch the nightly news and ask themselves if ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, MSNC, and CNBC as the source of the crime against the general population in any of the other extreme cases. Where are these people when Americans are killed by illegal aliens or Muslim disadents who are either allowed to be here due to the liberal agenda that is pushed on the American Citizenry with the media's full support or fosters hatered of the country by their one sided presentation of the news. These stations, as well as most other mass media outlets. continually push the statist (read Democrat) agenda. I will contend that while President Obama and the Democrat controlled congress may not be that of the Nazi party, neo or otherwise, their actions are not that far from the likes of Hitler's/ Musolini's (economically speaking), Chavez's, Castro's or many of the socialist european countries today! Yet, even now as we march towards socialized medicine with the exception of FOX News, not a peep of opposition from the vast majority of these news outlets! While we are constantly be bombarded stories of Christian bigotry, we seldom hear the stories of daily Muslim abuses. Look at the coverage given by mass media outlets to Israel, without Fox News, you would be hard pressed to know that Israel almost always (if not always) acts out of self defense. Yet, to hear the news coverage of the goings on out of that area, it is always covered as a "he said, she said" situation. Were the recent car bombings in New York city incited by this kind of biased coverage? Where is the outrage of the people who seem to hate Fox News for simply putting out the facts in there news coverage, at the liberal media for promoting such actions by those disturbed people?
Solon_Poledourus
ronbuice wrote:
I am always amazed at how some people love to call out FOX News as a contributor to criminal activity. I wonder if these same people watch the nightly news and ask themselves if ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, MSNC, and CNBC as the source of the crime against the general population in any of the other extreme cases.
News outlets have not, to my knowledge, been the "source" of any crimes. FOX or otherwise.
Quote:
Where are these people when Americans are killed by illegal aliens or Muslim disadents who are either allowed to be here due to the liberal agenda that is pushed on the American Citizenry with the media's full support
Link a news source of an illegal alien or Muslim dissident killing an American citizen, and I will gladly comment and condemn it right alongside you.
Quote:
I will contend that while President Obama and the Democrat controlled congress may not be that of the Nazi party, neo or otherwise, their actions are not that far from the likes of Hitler's/ Musolini's (economically speaking), Chavez's, Castro's or many of the socialist european countries today!
So is our congress akin to Nazi Germany or not?
Quote:
While we are constantly be bombarded stories of Christian bigotry, we seldom hear the stories of daily Muslim abuses.
Share some news articles of "Muslim abuses". Like I said, I will rant right with you, but not unfairly.
Quote:
Where is the outrage of the people who seem to hate Fox News for simply putting out the facts
FOX news, as well as all other news, doesn't just simply put out the facts. If you think FOX is somehow inherently honest in the face of all the other biased media, then you have been sold a lie. ALL media is owned by corporations which support politics on a one sided basis.

Feel free to start a thread about the leftist agenda of whatever news agency, and I'm sure you will find supporters. I will gladly throw in my two cents as well.
deanhills
ronbuice wrote:
I will contend that while President Obama and the Democrat controlled congress may not be that of the Nazi party, neo or otherwise, their actions are not that far from the likes of Hitler's/ Musolini's (economically speaking), Chavez's, Castro's or many of the socialist european countries today!
This is a good point to me. How did Hitler get to be as powerful as he was? The people gave him that power on the strength of his oratory skills, he had the gift for speeching and moving people. But most of all to disarm them. Perhaps that is what the US is going through right now. Democracy only happens once every four years, there is this sham of an election campaign, and then everyone goes back to get on with their lives, and let other people take care of the country, and those "other people" again think there are "other people" doing it, and in the end there is really no one that really cares. It is also not a true democracy, and to a certain extent may resemble Hitlerism, but only four years at a time Shocked
handfleisch
Looks like it's happening in UK too

Quote:
Far-Right extremists 'are plotting spectacular terrorist attack in UK', police warn

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198003/Far-Right-extremists-plotting-spectacular-terrorist-attack-UK-police-warn.html


Far right terror is on the march again....

By Jon Clements on Jul 6, 09 11:42 AM in
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/anything-you-say/2009/07/far-right-terror-is-on-the-mar.html

It's ten years since David Copeland killed two and injured hundreds with his nail bomb attacks on blacks, Muslims and gays in London but the threat from BNP sympathising terrorists hasn't gone away.

You may have missed this in the main paper so here is the full version of what the Counter Terrorist Unit in Leeds - set up to tackle al-Qaeda - has been up to over the last six weeks.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
Looks like it's happening in UK too

Quote:
Far-Right extremists 'are plotting spectacular terrorist attack in UK', police warn

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198003/Far-Right-extremists-plotting-spectacular-terrorist-attack-UK-police-warn.html


Far right terror is on the march again....

By Jon Clements on Jul 6, 09 11:42 AM in
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/anything-you-say/2009/07/far-right-terror-is-on-the-mar.html

It's ten years since David Copeland killed two and injured hundreds with his nail bomb attacks on blacks, Muslims and gays in London but the threat from BNP sympathising terrorists hasn't gone away.

You may have missed this in the main paper so here is the full version of what the Counter Terrorist Unit in Leeds - set up to tackle al-Qaeda - has been up to over the last six weeks.
Do you think this is likely to become an international phenomenon? I.e. not only the UK and US, but worldwide?
handfleisch
Stars and Stripes on neo-Nazis infiltrating the US military.

Quote:
Watchdog group: Dozens of active-duty troops found on neo-Nazi site

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=63650

WASHINGTON — It is Facebook for the fascist set, and the typical online profiles of its members reveal expected tastes.

Favorite book: “Mein Kampf.”

Favorite movie: the Nazi propaganda film “Triumph of the Will.”

Interests: “white women.”

Dislikes: “anyone who opposes the master race.”

But there’s one other thing that dozens of members of newsaxon.org, a white supremacist social networking website, have in common: They proudly identify themselves as active-duty members of the U.S. armed forces.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, the Montgomery, Ala.-based watchdog group that tracks extremist hate groups, has compiled a book containing the online user profiles of at least 40 newsaxon.org users who say they are serving in the military, in apparent violation of Pentagon regulations prohibiting racist extremism in the ranks.

On Friday, the SPLC will present its findings to key members of Congress who chair the House and Senate committees overseeing the armed forces and urge them to pressure the Pentagon to crack down.

“In the wake of several high-profile murders by extremists of the radical right, we urge your committees to investigate the threat posed by racial extremists who may be serving in the military to ensure that our armed forces are not inadvertently training future domestic terrorists,” Morris Dees, SPLC co-founder and chief trial counsel, wrote to the legislators. “Evidence continues to mount that current Pentagon policies are inadequate to prevent racial extremists from joining and serving in the armed forces.”


On edit, another:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=63672

Quote:
White supremacist leader says half of his group has served in the military
By Kevin Baron, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Saturday, July 11, 2009

PREVIOUS STORY: Watchdog group says dozens of active-duty troops found on neo-Nazi site

WASHINGTON — The leader of the white supremacist National Socialist Movement estimated Friday that half of his group’s membership has at one time served in the military.

A day earlier, the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, identified 40 profiles of individuals claiming to be active members of the military on newsaxon.org, a social networking Web site run by the NSM. A review of the site by Stars and Stripes found at least 130 profiles of members who claim to be in the military, though none of their identities and military affiliations has been confirmed.

“I think it’s an extreme left-wing scare tactic, and I think white soldiers have the same right to be in the military as everyone else does,” said Jeff Schoep, leader of the National Socialist Movement. “I think the SPLC is trying to pressure the military to throw these people out, and there is no basis for it. I think its un-American. I think it’s seditious.”

Morris Dees, co-founder of SPLC, said in a briefing at the National Press Club on Friday that groups like Schoep’s prize the military experience and the skills it provides servicemembers.

“These people are prime targets for recruitment by the radical right,” Dees said. “We see hate Web sites suggest that their members join the military to learn how to use C4 explosives.”
Moonspider
I have a question directed on no one in particular...

Why are racist groups, like neo-nazis and KKK, considered "radical right?" What political beliefs of theirs mark them as "right" in the American political spectrum?

Respectfully,
M
Bikerman
Moonspider wrote:
I have a question directed on no one in particular...

Why are racist groups, like neo-nazis and KKK, considered "radical right?" What political beliefs of theirs mark them as "right" in the American political spectrum?

Respectfully,
M

That's an interesting question. I can't offer much in way of a US answer, so I'll stick to the UK.
In my experience the 'neo nazi' type groups (the BNP is the nearest big example) like to avoid a specific political agenda and stick to a basic ultra-nationalist agenda (ie xyz* is responsible for the hardships you are currently enduring, therefore keep ogabugaland for the ogabuganese). In so far as they have a genuine political stance they are anti-communist, conservative (they love 'tradition'), totalitarian (they believe 'strong leadership' is necessary), and anti-liberal (both social and economic).

* substitute any suitable minority, race, creed.....
deanhills
Moonspider wrote:
I have a question directed on no one in particular...

Why are racist groups, like neo-nazis and KKK, considered "radical right?" What political beliefs of theirs mark them as "right" in the American political spectrum?

Respectfully,
M
Good question. I agree with Chris. They are determined radical right because of their agenda, more than their actions.
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