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Court adds uncertainty to Chrysler reorganization

 


icecool
well......
to call a chapter 11 filing "reorganisation" is quite something.
i'm not a lawyer but i went through one of them some years back - as one of the ones that got suckered.

as far as i can see it amounts to this.

a big corporation screws up its business. usually they over-extend on expansion and the cash flow hits the deck because top management got it wrong.
yep, thats the guys who are paid alot of money to get it right.
crysler is a prime example.
building big old tech cars when the trend in the rest of the world has been different for a long time. and buying other car makes for expansions sake - all on credit of course.

so when it goes wrong you just file for chapter 11. that protects you from going bust as long as you can come up with a sensible restructuring - just the way they did it.

Quote:
Under a deal brokered in the days leading up to Chrysler's April 30 Chapter 11 filing, Fiat will receive up to a 35 percent stake in the new company created by the sale, in exchange for sharing the technology Chrysler needs to create smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles.

The United Auto Workers union will get a 55 percent stake that will be used to fund its retiree health care obligations, while the U.S. and Canadian governments will receive a combined 10 percent stake.


now that doesnt look so bad on the face of it. they get access to nech technology, the retired are being taken care of after a fashion and the taxpayer gets a small stake.

but then there is another side:

Quote:
Meanwhile, the automaker's secured debtholders would get $2 billion in cash, or about 29 cents on the dollar, for their combined $6.9 billion in debt. Some of the debtholders balked at the deal, saying as secured lenders they deserved more.


hidden amongst these guys are all the lil ones like i used to be. small suppliers, service providers, people on short term contracts and so on. usually small businesses which quite rightly are termed "secured" debtholders. that means that under a normal bankruptcy filing your WHOLE debt is secured BEFORE anybody else has a claim.

to bring that "29 cents to the dollar" down to an understandable level:
lets say you supplied widgets and you have invoices outstanding for $ 100,000 - thats alot of money, maybe 2 months turnover for your small company.
these guys under that deal are offering you $ 29,000 - AND it can take years for you to actually get it.

that sucks.
BUT
as usual, the small guy gets stuffed - and i bet alot of the old top managers who got it wrong in the first place sitting in their mansions - they gonna still have a job after your small company making widgets has gone against the wall - AND leaving YOU with massive debts to YOUR own suppliers.
now YOU try to file for chapter 11.
oooops sorry
you're just to small and unimportant.

cheers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_chrysler
deanhills
Chrysler belongs to the United States citizens, perhaps even more than to the top management who completely mis-managed the company. Wouldn't a solution be to get rid of those heavy layers of top management? That would have been my wish for the BIG banks that got bailed out too. the TOP management has become completely out of reach and totally protected and cozy with enormous salaries, benefits, packages. Usually it is lean and mean people who make the better decisions, and people who are completely in touch with their customers and the real world. Not those top-heavy management who live in their ivory towers and fancy offices, executive board rooms and executive jets, completely out of touch with the real world, both when they are at work and when they are at home. Evil or Very Mad
ocalhoun
icecool wrote:

BUT
as usual, the small guy gets stuffed - and i bet alot of the old top managers who got it wrong in the first place sitting in their mansions - they gonna still have a job after your small company making widgets has gone against the wall - AND leaving YOU with massive debts to YOUR own suppliers.
now YOU try to file for chapter 11.
oooops sorry
you're just to small and unimportant.

Isn't government intervention wonderful?
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
icecool wrote:

BUT
as usual, the small guy gets stuffed - and i bet alot of the old top managers who got it wrong in the first place sitting in their mansions - they gonna still have a job after your small company making widgets has gone against the wall - AND leaving YOU with massive debts to YOUR own suppliers.
now YOU try to file for chapter 11.
oooops sorry
you're just to small and unimportant.

Isn't government intervention wonderful?
The part that I hate the most in this is lack of "full disclosure" about the cases that get interventions. When we as private citizens go to a Bank for a loan we have to fill in long forms and show security, but the 1.2-trillion at the beginning of the year is as obscure as mist. No papers shown, no progress reports, zero info or feedback of substance. I would like at least an Excel spreadsheet showing exactly where all the funds have gone. But then the information that was given in January obviously was not "full disclosure of the facts". I just can't comprehend that this is allowed to happen. How can the citizens be that passive?
ocalhoun
deanhills wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
icecool wrote:

BUT
as usual, the small guy gets stuffed - and i bet alot of the old top managers who got it wrong in the first place sitting in their mansions - they gonna still have a job after your small company making widgets has gone against the wall - AND leaving YOU with massive debts to YOUR own suppliers.
now YOU try to file for chapter 11.
oooops sorry
you're just to small and unimportant.

Isn't government intervention wonderful?
The part that I hate the most in this is lack of "full disclosure" about the cases that get interventions. When we as private citizens go to a Bank for a loan we have to fill in long forms and show security, but the 1.2-trillion at the beginning of the year is as obscure as mist. No papers shown, no progress reports, zero info or feedback of substance. I would like at least an Excel spreadsheet showing exactly where all the funds have gone. But then the information that was given in January obviously was not "full disclosure of the facts". I just can't comprehend that this is allowed to happen. How can the citizens be that passive?

The media doesn't care, therefore they don't care.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
The media doesn't care, therefore they don't care.
Perhaps the people have given their power away to the media? They don't have voices of their own any longer. They sit in front of TV boxes and allow the TV hosts to speak for them? I do believe the media care, but perhaps more is needed than care. Actions usually speak louder than words?
harismushtaq
Is the motive of not allowing FIAT buy chrysler just the fact that the ownership of the American company must not go outside America ? If this is the case, then there are many compainies that are laready owned by companies or individuals of other countries. Land Rover is owned by indian TATA to name one but I believe there are lots of share holders in different companies that are not American.
ocalhoun
harismushtaq wrote:
Is the motive of not allowing FIAT buy chrysler just the fact that the ownership of the American company must not go outside America ?

It wouldn't surprise me... The people in power right now are hyping up the economic crisis, partly to justify isolationist practices like this.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
harismushtaq wrote:
Is the motive of not allowing FIAT buy chrysler just the fact that the ownership of the American company must not go outside America ?

It wouldn't surprise me... The people in power right now are hyping up the economic crisis, partly to justify isolationist practices like this.
Excellent point. In the meanwhile, the Banks that have been bailed out are very very very quiet. We don't even know to what extent and the arrangements that have been made. Nor what has happened to the 1.2-trillion. I don't hear the media asking either. Nor the people of the US.
ocalhoun
deanhills wrote:
I don't hear the media asking either.

Likely because bank leadership boards and media leadership boards overlap.
icecool
ocalhoun wrote:
deanhills wrote:
I don't hear the media asking either.

Likely because bank leadership boards and media leadership boards overlap.


aaahhhhh
now we are getting to the bottom of things

i don't really have the time to do that kind of research but i have come accross a few examples in the past.

if you look up the board positions of lets say the 50 most prominent and powerful "captains of industry" you may actually find out that your country is run by a very few people indeed - it's all interwoven, finance, media, manufacturing of all kinds - and of course politics.

THAT is why not much is changing very fast for the better - but then the better for the people and the country may not always be the better for the people with the egos and the money.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
deanhills wrote:
I don't hear the media asking either.

Likely because bank leadership boards and media leadership boards overlap.
Wow, what a revelation .... I always thought that this was going on, and no doubt they were the advisors who spread the message about the imminent depression. They must be laughing at all of us! Most likely their bad investments were incluced in the toxic debts (indirectly) that were "bailed out" Evil or Very Mad
ocalhoun
icecool wrote:

if you look up the board positions of lets say the 50 most prominent and powerful "captains of industry" you may actually find out that your country is run by a very few people indeed - it's all interwoven, finance, media, manufacturing of all kinds - and of course politics.

Quite so. That (not the war) is what soured me on Bush... He was once on the board of directors for a large pharmaceutical company... Then he gets elected and makes the medicare prescription drug benefit (which doesn't allow the government to negotiate for lower prices, like all large insurance companies do, giving lots of extra money for the drug companies).

Things like that are the rule, not the exception, and they happen ubiquitously within all political persuasions.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
icecool wrote:

if you look up the board positions of lets say the 50 most prominent and powerful "captains of industry" you may actually find out that your country is run by a very few people indeed - it's all interwoven, finance, media, manufacturing of all kinds - and of course politics.

Quite so. That (not the war) is what soured me on Bush... He was once on the board of directors for a large pharmaceutical company... Then he gets elected and makes the medicare prescription drug benefit (which doesn't allow the government to negotiate for lower prices, like all large insurance companies do, giving lots of extra money for the drug companies).

Things like that are the rule, not the exception, and they happen ubiquitously within all political persuasions.


This irks me too. I seem to recall that we discussed in another thread as well how limited democracy really is in the US. However, perhaps this is not only in the US, but right through the world. There should be some rule about past directorships of countries disqualifying the President from being involved. But that would obviously not happen. Particularly interesting are the cross Board memberships of Banking CEOs, and I wonder what impact that had in getting the bail-out package put together.

PS: Congrats on reaching 6000 posting!
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