Quran and creation

ThePolemistis

Hi, this is an extention originally posted in this thread but with a focus on Quran and creation rather than creationism in general based on Bikerman's recommendation.

Bikerman wrote:

It is still nonsense.
The universe was NOT created in 6 days - whatever definition of 'yawm' you care to adopt. Perhaps you could tell us what you think the 6 'epochs' of creation were? What exactly happened at each of the 6 yawms? You might also care to explain why the Quran (in sura 41:9-12) appears to say that creation took 8 days not 6.

In fact this discussion is best had in a distinct thread rather than this general thread about creationists on these forums. I would be happy to contribute to a thread specifically on creation and the Quran.

The Quran does not go in great detail what happened during each of these 6 periods/days like the Bible. However you do cite chapter 41 which goes into slight detail. Unfortuanetly however, your deficiency in the Arabic language, blinds you from reading what is actually written.

THe verse in question is verses 9 - 12 of chapter 41:

Quran 41:9-12 wrote:

9 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

10 He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

I do not see how this adds up to 8.

I think you are in doubt with verse 11.

The arabic verse is:

Quran 41:9-11 wrote:

ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ

As you can see, the first two letters are "thuma". It means moreover.
The heavens and the Earth were created together/simultaneously, which took two days.

The other quote which I referenced supports this claim. That is:

Quran 21:30 wrote:

Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder and We got every living thing out of water? Will they then not believe?

Bikerman

Well,
I can't argue knowledgably about Arabic since I don't speak it.
I can, however, point out that Sura 2:29 reads:

Quote:

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; THEN (thumma) He turned to the heavens, and made them into seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

When I translate Thumma using an Arabic dictionary I get 'THEN' or 'NEXT'. That implies that one follows the other, not that they overlap.

I can also point to Sura 79:27-33 which seems to disagree on the order of things:

Quote:

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. AND AFTER THAT (bad'a) He spread the earth, And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof, And He made fast the hills, A provision for you and for your cattle.

loyal

Peace.

I haven't looked at the mother thread; (link is in the first post).

ThePolemistis wrote:

Bikerman wrote:

It is still nonsense.
The universe was NOT created in 6 days - whatever definition of 'yawm' you care to adopt. Perhaps you could tell us what you think the 6 'epochs' of creation were? What exactly happened at each of the 6 yawms? You might also care to explain why the Quran (in sura 41:9-12) appears to say that creation took 8 days not 6.

In fact this discussion is best had in a distinct thread rather than this general thread about creationists on these forums. I would be happy to contribute to a thread specifically on creation and the Quran.

This might be useful:

As I've written elsewhere, the word yawm has more than one meaning. The Quran primarily uses the word yawm to refer to a period of time. For example:

22:47 They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy. A 'yawm' of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.

70:4 The angels, with their reports, climb to Him in a 'yawm' that equals fifty thousand years.

If yawm only meant 24-hour day, then the second verse wouldn't make sense.

So when the Quran says the world was created in six 'ayyawm' (plural of yawm) it means six periods of times. It is commonly translated to 'days' because day can also refer to a period of time (and it's also a more nicer translation).

With regards to 41:9-12, where it apparently says the world was created in 8 days and not six:
It's a misunderstanding. 2 days has been added to 4, whereas the wording of the verse indicates that the four days include the two days of its creation. More detail here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/ma_six.htm :

zakir naik wrote:

They were six. The verses of 41:9-12 speak of overlapping actions in spans of four and two days each. The adverbs are the keys to understanding this. The verses of 11 and 12 use the adverbs "thummah" and "fa" which imply consecutiveness of action. Neither of these two, however, are used in verse 10 (the only one which mentions four days) which instead uses the adverb "wa" implying parallel, or "overlapping" actions. In other words, the grammar tells us that the four days mentioned in 10 are a continuation of the two mentioned in verse 9. The four days of "measuring the earth's sustenance" refers to the two days of the creation of the earth in addition to the two days of the "spreading out of the earth's features" (see next question"

Solon_Poledourus

loyal wrote:

As I've written elsewhere, the word yawm has more than one meaning. The Quran primarily uses the word yawm to refer to a period of time.

So "yawm" is just an ambiguous "period of time", which is only defined by the context in which it is used? Does the Quran specify how long these "ayyawm" are during creation? Or is it sort of open-ended?

Bikerman

loyal wrote:

As I've written elsewhere, the word yawm has more than one meaning. The Quran primarily uses the word yawm to refer to a period of time. For example:

That makes absolutely no difference as I said before. You can let Yawm mean anything you like and it still doesn't work.

Quote:

With regards to 41:9-12, where it apparently says the world was created in 8 days and not six:
It's a misunderstanding. 2 days has been added to 4, whereas the wording of the verse indicates that the four days include the two days of its creation. More detail here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/ma_six.htm :

Previously you said it was my lack of skills in Arabic. Now you say it is a 'misunderstanding'. The article you cite is very unconvincing - trying to pass this off as an error of interpretation rather than an error in the scripture itself.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i010.html

loyal

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

So "yawm" is just an ambiguous "period of time", which is only defined by the context in which it is used? Does the Quran specify how long these "ayyawm" are during creation? Or is it sort of open-ended?

The Quran does not specify. In general, "yawm" is not specific; it just refers to a period of time.
It's not meant to give you exactly how long it is. It's not a science textbook. From the view of some Muslims, the verses containing scientific detail are supposed to provide evidence.

Bikerman wrote:

loyal wrote:

As I've written elsewhere, the word yawm has more than one meaning. The Quran primarily uses the word yawm to refer to a period of time. For example:

That makes absolutely no difference as I said before. You can let Yawm mean anything you like and it still doesn't work.

It doesn't mean anything i like. It means a period of time. It is now commonly used to refer to the 24 hour period, just like day in english commonly refers to the 24 hour period. But its classical meaning refers to a period of time.

Why doesn't that make it work? The world was created in six periods of time. It's too vague to attack. You could categorize it into so many different time periods.

Quote:

With regards to 41:9-12, where it apparently says the world was created in 8 days and not six:
It's a misunderstanding. 2 days has been added to 4, whereas the wording of the verse indicates that the four days include the two days of its creation. More detail here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/ma_six.htm :

Previously you said it was my lack of skills in Arabic. Now you say it is a 'misunderstanding'. The article you cite is very unconvincing - trying to pass this off as an error of interpretation rather than an error in the scripture itself.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i010.html

Please take note who you're talking to. ThePolemistis is the one who said the fact that you can't read Arabic stops you from getting past translational errors or translational deficiencies; not me.
It doesn't make a difference what we called your problem, whether it be "lack of skills in Arabic" or a "misunderstanding". It all resolves down to the same problem.
In the Arabic, the wording does not imply a sequence (of events) but parallel (happening at the same time) events.

You claim the article i quoted is unconvincing. It didn't look like an article to me. It looked like a quote.
What's so unconvincing about it?
You claim i'm trying to pass it off of an error of interpretation rather than an error in the scripture itself. No I'm not. It's a simple case of you can't read Arabic, so you can't see the use of words that clearly refute the idea of a sequence of events. A poor translation would not manifest this clearly or simply translate it wrongly.

Zakir Naik explained it clearly. There is nothing to be "convinced" about. It's a simple matter of pointing out the wording. Since you didn't seem to understand, I'll explain it myself.

41:9 Say: "You are rejecting the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. This is Lord of the worlds."

41:10 Wa He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants.

41:11 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth: "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We come willingly."

41:12 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its laws. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

The adverbs used in verses 11 and 12 are "thummah" and "fa" which give the meaning of a sequence of actions/events, one action after another. For example, a common translation of thummah is "then". These adverbs are not used in verse 10, which is the only verse that mentions four days; verse 10 uses the adverb "wa" which gives the meaning of parallel/overlapping actions.
So the grammar tells us that verse 9 and verse 10 overlap. Verse 11 happens after verse 9/10, and verse 12 happens after verse 11.

Peace.

Bikerman

loyal wrote:

Bikerman wrote:

loyal wrote:

As I've written elsewhere, the word yawm has more than one meaning. The Quran primarily uses the word yawm to refer to a period of time. For example:

That makes absolutely no difference as I said before. You can let Yawm mean anything you like and it still doesn't work.

It doesn't mean anything i like. It means a period of time. It is now commonly used to refer to the 24 hour period, just like day in english commonly refers to the 24 hour period. But its classical meaning refers to a period of time.

It is, therefore completely meaningless. Unless you can specify what defines a period of time then the sentence contains no information at all. You could equally well say it took 1 yawm, 100 yawms, a million Yawms.....there is no useful information at all.

Quote:

Please take note who you're talking to. ThePolemistis is the one who said the fact that you can't read Arabic stops you from getting past translational errors or translational deficiencies; not me.

My mistake.

Quote:

It doesn't make a difference what we called your problem, whether it be "lack of skills in Arabic" or a "misunderstanding". It all resolves down to the same problem.
In the Arabic, the wording does not imply a sequence (of events) but parallel (happening at the same time) events.

Err...no. The Sura I quoted (2:29) uses the word THUMMA (which, as you agree, implies a serial chain of events, not an overlap).

Quote:

You claim the article i quoted is unconvincing. It didn't look like an article to me. It looked like a quote.
What's so unconvincing about it?

It was quoted from an article which you provided the link to. If you check the link that I provided in reply you will see why I think it is so unconvincing.

loyal

Bikerman wrote:

loyal wrote:

It doesn't mean anything i like. It means a period of time. It is now commonly used to refer to the 24 hour period, just like day in english commonly refers to the 24 hour period. But its classical meaning refers to a period of time.

It is, therefore completely meaningless. Unless you can specify what defines a period of time then the sentence contains no information at all.

....!
Suffice to say that you don't need to give something exactly otherwise it's "meaningless". The point of the verse was not "by the way, the world was created in 24.2489 million years". Nor is it meaningless. We've learnt that the world was created in six periods of time. That's meaning.

Quote:

It doesn't make a difference what we called your problem, whether it be "lack of skills in Arabic" or a "misunderstanding". It all resolves down to the same problem.
In the Arabic, the wording does not imply a sequence (of events) but parallel (happening at the same time) events.

Err...no. The Sura I quoted (2:29) uses the word THUMMA (which, as you agree, implies a serial chain of events, not an overlap).

???

He is the One who created for you all that is on earth, then He tended to the heaven and made it seven heavens, and He is aware of all things.

So the earth was made. Then the Heavens were made.

41:9 Say: "You are rejecting the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. This is Lord of the worlds."
41:11 Then He settled to the heaven...
41:12 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days...

So the earth and then the heavens were made. No contradiction.

Quote:

You claim the article i quoted is unconvincing. It didn't look like an article to me. It looked like a quote.
What's so unconvincing about it?

It was quoted from an article which you provided the link to. If you check the link that I provided in reply you will see why I think it is so unconvincing.

Sorry, but that holds no water as a response. I've very clearly explained that verse 9, as the only verse that talks about four days and as the verse providing the supposed contradiction, has the adverb "wa" and not "thummah" or "fa".

I don't need to respond to irrelevant information to refute something. I don't even need to read it because the supposed contradiction is in verse 9 claiming four days in addition to two. I've answered that. However, I know you won't be satisified. So here's a quick response to the points made on the page.

The page begins by making the point that there are three stages of creation. As i've pointed out using the Arabic, there are actually two. Contradiction solved.

The page then quotes Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir, who let me point out have all made poor translators of the Quran. I simply don't trust them (the website) when it coming to quoting something; it's also irrelevant whatever yusuf ali's commentary is; We're discussing the Quran, not some non-scholar's commentary. It's irrelevant to the contradiction. For example, the page quotes that verse 11 makes the point that "thumma" is "then". I know. It's in my response. Read my response.
The page then makes the point that things on earth were created before the earth. The verse doesn't say that, so there's no point responding to this. Seven Heavens strongly seems to refer to seven things surrounding the earth; so there's no logical contradiction in sequence of events to say that the earth was created, then things surrounding the earth was created.
The page then returns to the discussion of the word "thummah".
The page then ends its main article by saying "I acknowledge that I am not able to read the Arabic and I investigated this passage from the English translations only but the translators are experts in the Arabic language and usually one can trust them. I invite anybody who can give a clear exposition based on the (Arabic) text which makes good sense and solves the problem." I find that quite funny. Since the contradiction has been solved using the Arabic. And then i've been told to refer to this page... lol
The page then quotes a hadith and discusses that. Irrelevant. We're discussing the Quran, not the Hadith. Furthermore,the hadith haven't been transmitted perfectly, and the Quran is higher than the hadith. So any problem in the hadith renders its wrong. Which isn't a problem for Muslims, since everyone acknowledges there are some false and altered hadith. But that's a whole other topic.
The verse than quotes very briefly an iranian guy. Quoting very briefly without showing us the context in which the guy wrote and what the guy then wrote on (i suspect he went onto solve the "problem"). However he solved the problem or not (and i doubt the problem is even there since i can't find a reference to this "problem" elsewhere, despite many close examinations of that verse), I can say myself that a masculine plural can refer to a collection of objects, feminine or not. Just like God is described using masculine pronouns and plural pronouns, but He is genderless and singular.

Peace.

Bikerman

loyal wrote:

Bikerman wrote:

loyal wrote:

It doesn't mean anything i like. It means a period of time. It is now commonly used to refer to the 24 hour period, just like day in english commonly refers to the 24 hour period. But its classical meaning refers to a period of time.

It is, therefore completely meaningless. Unless you can specify what defines a period of time then the sentence contains no information at all.

....!
Suffice to say that you don't need to give something exactly otherwise it's "meaningless". The point of the verse was not "by the way, the world was created in 24.2489 million years". Nor is it meaningless. We've learnt that the world was created in six periods of time. That's meaning.

No - it is completely devoid of any meaning unless Yawm is defined.
I could equally well say the world was created in 1,2,3,7,99,109990 yawms. Unless we have a definition of a yawm (either in terms of chronology or some other criteria) then the term '6 yawms' means precisely nothing.

Bikerman

loyal wrote:

So the earth was made. Then the Heavens were made.

OK - now read Sura 79:

Quote:

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. AND AFTER THAT (bad'a) He spread the earth, And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof, And He made fast the hills, A provision for you and for your cattle.

Seems like the other way around to me.....

Solon_Poledourus

Bikerman wrote:

No - it is completely devoid of any meaning unless Yawm is defined.
I could equally well say the world was created in 1,2,3,7,99,109990 yawms. Unless we have a definition of a yawm (either in terms of chronology or some other criteria) then the term '6 yawms' means precisely nothing.

I think this may be the most significant discovery in mathematics EVER.

Stay with me.
I saw another thread asking this question, and everyone argued about it for quite some time. I have seen this asked on other forums too, and have heard many people try to figure this out, but not a single person could ever really agree on how to do it.

"What is this question", you ask?

Well, slow down there Cochise... Imma gettin to it...
When does 1 + 1 = 3 ?

The answer?
When all the numbers involved are "Yawms".

I've never really excelled at math, but think about it... it could work...

loyal

Bikerman wrote:

No - it is completely devoid of any meaning unless Yawm is defined.
I could equally well say the world was created in 1,2,3,7,99,109990 yawms. Unless we have a definition of a yawm (either in terms of chronology or some other criteria) then the term '6 yawms' means precisely nothing.

Again, the point of the verse is not to reveal the exact time it took to reveal the universe. And, it's not meaningless. We know it was created in six days. That's a still a meaning. Something doesn't have to be precise to have meaning. Evolution occured over millions of years. Did i specify the exact time? No. Does the sentence loose meaning? No.

Quote:

loyal wrote:

So the earth was made. Then the Heavens were made.

OK - now read Sura 79:

Quote:

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. AND AFTER THAT (bad'a) He spread the earth, And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof, And He made fast the hills, A provision for you and for your cattle.

Seems like the other way around to me.....

Are you more difficult to create than the heaven? He constructed it.
He raised its height, and perfected it.
And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
And the earth (land) after that He spread out.
He brought forth from it its own water and pasture.
And the mountains He fixed firmly.
All this to be a provision for you and your livestock.

The word which is translated as "heaven" has multiple meanings. The word "heaven" in this case is singular. It's not referring to the same "heavens" (plural) which were created after. In this case, it refers to the sky. This entire passage is in reference to the creation of the earth. "He raised its height" is in reference to the sky. Night and Day was created. The earth was spread out (in reference to land). Water was brought out. Mountains were fixed.

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

When does 1 + 1 = 3 ?
The answer?
When all the numbers involved are "Yawms".
I've never really excelled at math, but think about it... it could work

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

Peace.

Note: I won't reply for some days. Very busy with exams. Hope the weather is really hot and nice in cheshire, bikerman, like it's been here! Wink

Bikerman

loyal wrote:

Again, the point of the verse is not to reveal the exact time it took to reveal the universe. And, it's not meaningless. We know it was created in six days. That's a still a meaning. Something doesn't have to be precise to have meaning. Evolution occured over millions of years. Did i specify the exact time? No. Does the sentence loose meaning? No.

You are completely missing the point either deliberately or not - I can't tell.
We know what a year is - therefore the phrase "millions of years' has a meaning - it means not less than 1 million years.
If we don't know what a yawm is then the phrase 6 yawms has NO MEANING. None at all. Not a scrap.
We could quite well say that 1 yawm + 1 yawm = 3 yawms (as Solon quite rightly points out).
Is 6 'undefined somethings' different to 8 'undefined somethings'? Who knows BECAUSE it is meaningless.

Quote:

Are you more difficult to create than the heaven? He constructed it.
He raised its height, and perfected it.
And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
And the earth (land) after that He spread out.

How do you create sky without land? Are you saying that God created a ball of gas first, then created a solid core of land within the ball? The physics of that do not work at all......

PS - no, the weather is overcast here at the moment. We have had some glorious weather over the last week but it looks set for a few days of rain and cloud at the moment.

Last edited by Bikerman on Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

Solon_Poledourus

Bikerman wrote:

We could quite well say that 1 yawm = 3 yawms (which is where Solon quite rightly points out).

BINGO! You win the toaster oven!

ThePolemistis

Bikerman wrote:

Well,
I can't argue knowledgably about Arabic since I don't speak it.

You argue on a subject in which you have no precise translation?
It is like someone arguing over what Shakesphere meant based on French translations when we have the English translations to go by.

The arabic version is the one revealed by God. A translation is only to get a glimpse of the words. We cannot engage in deep discussions based on English translations over the original Arabic. It is foolish if you think the translation holds a superior right.

Bikerman wrote:

I can, however, point out that Sura 2:29 reads:

Quote:

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; THEN (thumma) He turned to the heavens, and made them into seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

I have discussed this. The meaning is moreover.

Bikerman wrote:

When I translate Thumma using an Arabic dictionary I get 'THEN' or 'NEXT'. That implies that one follows the other, not that they overlap.

You translate "darabah", and you will get beat - hence "beat your wives". Yet, another translation of the same word darabah is turn your back, or to send away, or to ignore.
In the same way, beat in English does not necessarily mean physical force either, i.e. Manchester United beat Liverpool.
How comprehensive is this arabic dictionary? I hope it is not google translator Razz

Bikerman wrote:

I can also point to Sura 79:27-33 which seems to disagree on the order of things:

Quote:

Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. AND AFTER THAT (bad'a) He spread the earth, And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof, And He made fast the hills, A provision for you and for your cattle.

[/quote]

Regarding the above verse, what is in disagreement here?

And replying to some of your other quotes to otehrs:

Bikerman wrote:

It is, therefore completely meaningless. Unless you can specify what defines a period of time then the sentence contains no information at all. You could equally well say it took 1 yawm, 100 yawms, a million Yawms.....there is no useful information at all.

Precisely my point. There are verses which do explicitly define the length of day, i.e. where it says "of what you measure". The one regarding 6 days does nto say "of what you measure", and given that the Quran also states "God turned to the heaven when it was smoke", how can we define day to mean Earth day?

Bikerman wrote:

No - it is completely devoid of any meaning unless Yawm is defined.
I could equally well say the world was created in 1,2,3,7,99,109990 yawms. Unless we have a definition of a yawm (either in terms of chronology or some other criteria) then the term '6 yawms' means precisely nothing.

No. The word has as much meaning as the word "period" does. God created the heavens and the Earth in 6 periods, and no fatigue touched him.
What exactly are you complaining about? The Quran is not a book of science, it is a book of signs. Please don't expect a mathematical formula derving the answer to the universe.

But the most important thing is: it does not disagree with science. The way the world was created with regards to modern science, is not at conflict with the way the world was created with regards to the Quran (i.e. the big bang theory, evolution etc)

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

Well, slow down there Cochise... Imma gettin to it...
When does 1 + 1 = 3 ?

The answer?
When all the numbers involved are "Yawms".

Yawms in this context means period. It seems silly you are complaining over a word, as if to say it should be prohibited from being written. Should we remove period from the English language simply because it does not represent an actual number of hours, instead an (uncertain?) length of time?

Plus 1 + 1 = 3 in added value. Just my 0.02

Solon_Poledourus

ThePolemistis wrote:

The arabic version is the one revealed by God.

I find it funny that God either speaks Arabic, or chose to reveal his wisdom in such a way that it could be mistranslated. For being infallible and omnipotent, he sure seems to lack foresight.

Quote:

Yawms in this context means period.

And "1" in my equation means "1 Yawm", which can actually be 2 days or 1 century, depending on context. Hence, 1+1=3
(1Yawm(2days)+1Yawm(1century)=3Yawm(1 century and 2 days).

Quote:

It seems silly you are complaining over a word, as if to say it should be prohibited from being written.

I'm not complaining. Just pointing out absurdity.

Quote:

Should we remove period from the English language simply because it does not represent an actual number of hours, instead an (uncertain?) length of time?

Bad analogy. "Period" doesn't get used to describe a specific timeline for something. People don't say "there are 7 'periods' in a week and 52 'periods' in a year". It's too ambiguous.

Bikerman

The point is that you may well use the term 'period of time' in communication to express an indeterminate span of time.
Thus you could say something like "I have been studying physics for quite a period of time". The sentence doesn't contain much information but it implies a reasonable span.

You would NOT, however, use the term 'six periods of time' because it is meaningless - especially when each period could be different.
Thus you would not say "I have been studying physics for 6 periods of time" - it even sounds daft....

Now, if we use an alternative meaning - era or epoch - then it makes more sense. The problem is that an era or epoch has to be defined by something. Thus we talk about the 'epoch of the dinosaurs' which has clear boundaries - the time during which the dinosaurs existed. If we wish to say that the Quran is using 'yawm' in this way then there should be some way to tell what each 'epoch' is defined by....

ThePolemistis

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

I find it funny that God either speaks Arabic, or chose to reveal his wisdom in such a way that it could be mistranslated. For being infallible and omnipotent, he sure seems to lack foresight.

I answer you with a quotation from the Quran:

Quran 41:44 wrote:

And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say: It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place."

The Quran was revealed in Arabic. That is the language it is preserved in. Any other translation is the work of man - and bound to be mistakes.

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

And "1" in my equation means "1 Yawm", which can actually be 2 days or 1 century, depending on context. Hence, 1+1=3
(1Yawm(2days)+1Yawm(1century)=3Yawm(1 century and 2 days).

These 6 periods should be considered stages

Solon_Poledourus wrote:

Bad analogy. "Period" doesn't get used to describe a specific timeline for something. People don't say "there are 7 'periods' in a week and 52 'periods' in a year". It's too ambiguous.

But people do say you have 7 periods in a day? (regarding class lessons for instance).

Bikerman wrote:

The point is that you may well use the term 'period of time' in communication to express an indeterminate span of time.
Thus you could say something like "I have been studying physics for quite a period of time". The sentence doesn't contain much information but it implies a reasonable span.

You would NOT, however, use the term 'six periods of time' because it is meaningless - especially when each period could be different.
Thus you would not say "I have been studying physics for 6 periods of time" - it even sounds daft....

Now, if we use an alternative meaning - era or epoch - then it makes more sense. The problem is that an era or epoch has to be defined by something. Thus we talk about the 'epoch of the dinosaurs' which has clear boundaries - the time during which the dinosaurs existed. If we wish to say that the Quran is using 'yawm' in this way then there should be some way to tell what each 'epoch' is defined by....

Sorry is there a difference between period, era, or epoch?

Reading meaningless data, Consider this:
We won the football game in 6 periods. In the first two periods, we dominated the game, followed by two periods where the opponent had more possession. The final two periods, we pushed further and won it.
I don't see the above sentence as meaningless.

Bikerman

ThePolemistis wrote:

Bikerman wrote:

The point is that you may well use the term 'period of time' in communication to express an indeterminate span of time.
Thus you could say something like "I have been studying physics for quite a period of time". The sentence doesn't contain much information but it implies a reasonable span.

You would NOT, however, use the term 'six periods of time' because it is meaningless - especially when each period could be different.
Thus you would not say "I have been studying physics for 6 periods of time" - it even sounds daft....

Now, if we use an alternative meaning - era or epoch - then it makes more sense. The problem is that an era or epoch has to be defined by something. Thus we talk about the 'epoch of the dinosaurs' which has clear boundaries - the time during which the dinosaurs existed. If we wish to say that the Quran is using 'yawm' in this way then there should be some way to tell what each 'epoch' is defined by....

Sorry is there a difference between period, era, or epoch?

Yes - an era or epoch is defined by events - an event starts the era and another event (or lack of) defines the end.

Quote:

Reading meaningless data, Consider this:
We won the football game in 6 periods. In the first two periods, we dominated the game, followed by two periods where the opponent had more possession. The final two periods, we pushed further and won it.
I don't see the above sentence as meaningless.

No but it contains nonsense. Why six periods? - surely there were only 3 - the period where you dominated, the period where the opponent had more possession, and the period where you pushed further away. These periods are clearly defined by events. To further subdivide each of those into two is meaningless, unless there is some defining event in each of those.

Solon_Poledourus

ThePolemistis wrote:

The Quran was revealed in Arabic. That is the language it is preserved in.

For what purpose? Why not reveal it in a all languages, to ensure that all humans are well aware of the true word of God? Revealing it only in Arabic or any other sole language is very egocentric, and very human. It makes the needle on my BS-o-meter tack way off to the right.

Quote:

But people do say you have 7 periods in a day? (regarding class lessons for instance).

But when students use this term, they already have a firsthand account of how long that 'period' is, usually about an hour.