This is very horrible. To go completely missing and off the radar screen. I wonder how that happened? The next of kin have to be in serious distress and Air France must be in dire straights. This has to be much more expensive to them too than having a crash happening where you can see things the way they are and be able to locate the recorder.
Considering the water depth in the assumed location of the crash may be 15,000 feet... it will be pretty hard. The chance of finding survivors are practically none now, it's a bit more than 24 hours since the aircraft disappeared from radar.
| Nick2008 wrote: |
| Considering the water depth in the assumed location of the crash may be 15,000 feet... it will be pretty hard. The chance of finding survivors are practically none now, it's a bit more than 24 hours since the aircraft disappeared from radar. |
So all of it just vanished! Isn't there an electronic beeper attached somewhere, like to the recorder? Do you think the depth would have an effect on the recorder, is it pressure resistant?I'm pretty sure the "Black Box" (the flight recorder) is resistant to that kind of pressure, but that's not to say that it may have been damaged or destroyed during the crash. What's really surprising is that the article didn't say if ANY wreckage was spotted. One would think that something (anything) would have floated up from the crash. I would think it impossible for a plane to hit the ocean and not break up leaving some kind of trace.
Did they found it today ?
I heard at the radio that there was somekind of SOS message sent to a control tower before they lost it.
Let's hope they'll find it and the people...
| pll wrote: |
Did they found it today ?
I heard at the radio that there was somekind of SOS message sent to a control tower before they lost it.
Let's hope they'll find it and the people... |
Doesn't sound if there is much hope that they will find it. Another mystery that will go unsolved. Except this is not the Bermuda triangle. | Vrythramax wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure the "Black Box" (the flight recorder) is resistant to that kind of pressure, but that's not to say that it may have been damaged or destroyed during the crash. What's really surprising is that the article didn't say if ANY wreckage was spotted. One would think that something (anything) would have floated up from the crash. I would think it impossible for a plane to hit the ocean and not break up leaving some kind of trace. |
There surely are some traces, such as the flotation devices built into the seats, some of which must have broken off and floated up...
The Atlantic is a big place though. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| Vrythramax wrote: | | I'm pretty sure the "Black Box" (the flight recorder) is resistant to that kind of pressure, but that's not to say that it may have been damaged or destroyed during the crash. What's really surprising is that the article didn't say if ANY wreckage was spotted. One would think that something (anything) would have floated up from the crash. I would think it impossible for a plane to hit the ocean and not break up leaving some kind of trace. |
There surely are some traces, such as the flotation devices built into the seats, some of which must have broken off and floated up...
The Atlantic is a big place though. |
Looks as though they have found some of the wreckage and an oil spill which apparently means it did not explode. But they are wondering whether it broke up before it hit the ocean. Depth at the point where they found the oil spill is 22,950 feet (7,000 meters) and Brazil does not have the equipment to go that deep. Apparently there were indications that they were experiencing really bad electric storms which caused some of the equipment to malfunction.
More info:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090604/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane;_ylt=AlP2Mvt.g_3mEUQU1S9jBWKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJlYzExMnEwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNjA0L2JyYXppbF9wbGFuZQRjcG9zAzMEcG9zAzExBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2FpcmZyYW5jZWpldA--
There have been few accidents in air crash history where it was left undetermined, the cause of the crash. This is one such accident which I think we may never be able to actually know what happened to the crew and the pessengers that day. It was a normal flight, similar to the flights we often take ourselves. At the time of reaching the airport, boarding, taking off, dinner in the plane, no one knew how close thier death awaits them.
Turbulent storms are always dangerous no matter how sophisticated the airliner is and it is normal practice to avoid passing through them as much as possible. It was dark around the plane at the time of the accident. The crew must be relying on the wheater radar but they would have known the storm ahead of them. If it was towering that high and if it was so supercharged, its dangers would have been identified by the radar. So did they turn away, then the reason of crash should be something else. Or did they went into it. May be there was a problem with the radar.
I am not an air crash investigator but I beleive the accident was sudden, catostrophic and most of the air craft systems failed in air. It may have disintegrated mid air. Wreckage has been found in very spreaded zone. Could see current spread it to that enormous area in less then two days ? Very difficult investigation in fatc.
The more I heard of this story, the more it sounds like the plot of "Lost".
Obviously this is real life, and any senseless loss of life is regretable.... but is this beyond Hollywood??
Malcolm
the debri not of the plane, the plane is LOST.... breaking news on cnn.
its too sad to learn so many ppl lost in ocean....
| harismushtaq wrote: |
| There have been few accidents in air crash history where it was left undetermined, the cause of the crash. This is one such accident which I think we may never be able to actually know what happened to the crew and the pessengers that day. It was a normal flight, similar to the flights we often take ourselves. At the time of reaching the airport, boarding, taking off, dinner in the plane, no one knew how close thier death awaits them. |
I don't agree, the flight was not normal. They were in an enormous electric storm which basically nixed the electronics of the plane and made it unflyable.
| Quote: |
The last message from the pilot was a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time Sunday saying he was flying through an area of black, electrically charged cumulonimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning. The automated messages that followed suggest the plane broke apart in the sky, according to the aviation industry official.
At 11:10 p.m., a cascade of problems began: the autopilot had disengaged, a key computer system switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm sounded indicating the deterioration of flight systems. Then, systems for monitoring air speed, altitude and direction failed. Then controls over the main flight computer and wing spoilers failed as well. At 11:14 p.m., a final automatic message signaled loss of cabin pressure and complete electrical failure as the plane was breaking apart.
Patrick Smith, a U.S. airline pilot and aviation analyst, said the failures could have begun with a loss of electrical power, possibly as the result of an extremely strong lightning bolt.
"What jumps out at me is the reported failure of both the primary and standby instruments," Smith said. "From that point the plane basically becomes unflyable."
"If they lost control and started spiraling down into a storm cell, the plane would begin disintegrating, the engines and wings would start coming off, the cabin would begin falling apart," he said. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090604/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane;_ylt=AlP2Mvt.g_3mEUQU1S9jBWKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJlYzExMnEwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNjA0L2JyYXppbF9wbGFuZQRjcG9zAzMEcG9zAzExBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2FpcmZyYW5jZWpldA--its amazing how quickly news develops and disseminates these days.
a week ago the pane was lost - now they have found bodies and debris and a whole lot of effort is made to find whats floating about and the black box to see what actually happened. i just wonder if it would be more cost effective to put that kind of effort into safety BEFORE tragedies like that happen and safe alot of lives and heartbreak for relatives and friends.
but then again - profits and the bottom line for shareholders has to come first.
| icecool wrote: |
its amazing how quickly news develops and disseminates these days.
a week ago the pane was lost - now they have found bodies and debris and a whole lot of effort is made to find whats floating about and the black box to see what actually happened. i just wonder if it would be more cost effective to put that kind of effort into safety BEFORE tragedies like that happen and safe alot of lives and heartbreak for relatives and friends.
but then again - profits and the bottom line for shareholders has to come first. |
I can't however believe profits would ever come before safety as it would be most unprofitable for a disaster to happen. I truly believe this tragedy happened because of natural reasons, i.e. electric storm that hit the plane and nixed its electronics. I also have every confidence that Air France and all the large carriers are very careful with safety. I don't have a problem with their attention to safety.They can't cover all the risks and the Air France disaster was not their fault. The only improvements that can be made for safety in this particular instance would be one in the design of the plane to be more resistant to natural disasters such as an electric storm. I can imagine that this would be receiving the attention of the people who designed the plane and hopefully it will be incorporated in the design of future planes.
Agreed. It is fantastic to learn so much on the Internet about the accident and to see all the photos and videos. I feel really grateful for all this fantastic technology. Awesome! 
| deanhills wrote: |
| icecool wrote: | its amazing how quickly news develops and disseminates these days.
a week ago the pane was lost - now they have found bodies and debris and a whole lot of effort is made to find whats floating about and the black box to see what actually happened. i just wonder if it would be more cost effective to put that kind of effort into safety BEFORE tragedies like that happen and safe alot of lives and heartbreak for relatives and friends.
but then again - profits and the bottom line for shareholders has to come first. |
I can't however believe profits would ever come before safety as it would be most unprofitable for a disaster to happen. I truly believe this tragedy happened because of natural reasons, i.e. electric storm that hit the plane and nixed its electronics. I also have every confidence that Air France and all the large carriers are very careful with safety. I don't have a problem with their attention to safety.They can't cover all the risks and the Air France disaster was not their fault. The only improvements that can be made for safety in this particular instance would be one in the design of the plane to be more resistant to natural disasters such as an electric storm. I can imagine that this would be receiving the attention of the people who designed the plane and hopefully it will be incorporated in the design of future planes.
Agreed. It is fantastic to learn so much on the Internet about the accident and to see all the photos and videos. I feel really grateful for all this fantastic technology. Awesome! |
i am not questioning air frances attention to safety issues - or indeed most other airlines i have frequently fown with or will be flying with in the future.
however it is an established fact that in many manufacturing processes alot of research and feasibility studies are done to determine failure rates of either components or/and design and the cost implications of "disasters" versus improving features. this applies especially to the transport sector - X million people/miles per death and compensation costs versus X million or billion bucks extra spent on r&d. | icecool wrote: |
i am not questioning air frances attention to safety issues - or indeed most other airlines i have frequently fown with or will be flying with in the future.
however it is an established fact that in many manufacturing processes alot of research and feasibility studies are done to determine failure rates of either components or/and design and the cost implications of "disasters" versus improving features. this applies especially to the transport sector - X million people/miles per death and compensation costs versus X million or billion bucks extra spent on r&d. |
OK. I got it And I agree. There is a point, like the design I mentioned, that cost would be a major consideration. The fact that the designers of the plane were so quick to warn about the icing over of equipment and that improvements have to be incorporated by the others planes of the same design prove what you have said is correct.There are radio signals being transmitted from these black boxes... but they will stop transmitting in about 20 days or so. After the radio signals stop transmitting, and if we still haven't found them, it will become much harder finding them. This is truly catastrophic, and I do believe it was a lightning strike that brought the plane down. There were many failure messages transmitted from the aircraft, which indicates a massive electronic failure. Hopefully we find the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder before the radio signals cease. We can then hopefully find out the problem and make aircraft more safer in these situations, but one thing is for certain, the lives of those on Air France 447 will never be brought back. 
| Nick2008 wrote: |
| There are radio signals being transmitted from these black boxes... but they will stop transmitting in about 20 days or so. After the radio signals stop transmitting, and if we still haven't found them, it will become much harder finding them. This is truly catastrophic, and I do believe it was a lightning strike that brought the plane down. There were many failure messages transmitted from the aircraft, which indicates a massive electronic failure. Hopefully we find the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder before the radio signals cease. We can then hopefully find out the problem and make aircraft more safer in these situations, but one thing is for certain, the lives of those on Air France 447 will never be brought back. |
Agreed. It is really a catastrophe. While reading your posting it went through my mind that none of these accidents are really exactly the same. They all come with their own unique content. The constraints are also completely different, i.e. the depth of the ocean in which the black boxes are. And the Turkish Airline plane that went down in a densely populated city and managed to get into a field instead of hitting a neighbourhood. The latter I think was a fluke as the pilots did not seem to be looking outside and had their eyes peeled on the guages which ironically were giving misleading height information. Also quite unique. And then that air plane that went down in the Hudson River when all the odds had really been stacked against it for disintegrating on impact. Also completely unique.so sad to hear about this news.... hope, they will find the plane to get those dead bodies....well, lets just pray for them and may they Rest in Peace....
Looks as though poor Air France is going to get a number of lawsuits coming its way. Couldn't be at a worse time!
| Quote: |
While investigators scour the Atlantic for clues to the cause of the crash of Air France Flight 447, lawyers in Brazil, France and the U.S. are taking steps to determine the proper forum for any lawsuits.
|
More info at the link for the article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0sJI9Ewwc0o The worst of the news is that the terrain under the sea at the crash site is very rugged and now after more than 30 days have passed, the acoustic pingers would have stopped working. This means that the black boxes may never be discovered and the mystery behind the crash will always remain undiscovered.
| harismushtaq wrote: |
| The worst of the news is that the terrain under the sea at the crash site is very rugged and now after more than 30 days have passed, the acoustic pingers would have stopped working. This means that the black boxes may never be discovered and the mystery behind the crash will always remain undiscovered. |
I thought there was not that much of a mystery in that there had been clear evidence of an electric storm and that the plane could have been hit by lightning which had fried all the electronics. Sort of an instant event, followed by almost immediate disintegration? Given that it must have been a very "instant" event, I can't imagine there could have been much to be retrieved from the black box, other than perhaps that everything had failed?
