| Quote: |
A baseball fan who says he was ejected from Yankee Stadium by police after he left his seat to use the bathroom during the playing of "God Bless America" sued the New York Yankees and the city on Wednesday.
Bradford Campeau-Laurion says in his federal lawsuit his rights were violated at an Aug. 26 game between the Yankees and the Boston Red Sox when he tried to pass a police officer.
The lawsuit said the officer did not let him take a step before grabbing his right arm and twisting it behind him. It said two officers marched him down several ramps to the stadium's exit, where he was pushed out as one officer told him to leave the country if he didn't like it. |
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20090415/BBA.Yankees.Lawsuit/
Now, I would imagine we're not getting the whole story and/or some aspects of it are over exaggerated, but the idea that this situation would even arise is absurd. Although I'm not too surprised.Ehh... There's probably a lot more to the story than mentioned. Maybe they kicked him out because he was wearing a Boston jersey.
I agree that there is way more to this story than we are getting. How do we know that the things he says are true, and how do we know that when he said he went to the bathroom he wasn't doing it on the wall or something?
| Xanatos wrote: |
| I agree that there is way more to this story than we are getting. How do we know that the things he says are true, and how do we know that when he said he went to the bathroom he wasn't doing it on the wall or something? |
Agreed. Especially with the latter part. There has to be more to this story for sure.I don't know the whole story, but I honestly don't think his claim is that whacky given the country we live in, where people want to place infinite importance on political correctness and constantly place religion on a pedestal. It absolutely would not surprise me if what he is saying really happened.
While the specifics of Campeau-Laurion's case may change whether or not he can claim discrimination personally, the article makes it clear that discrimination exists:
| http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20090415/BBA.Yankees.Lawsuit/ wrote: |
| "God Bless America," written by Irving Berlin in 1918, was played at big league ballparks throughout the country when baseball resumed after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It was discontinued in some cities the following seasons but remained a fixture at Yankees games, at which security personnel and ushers use chains to block off some exits while it's played. |
i would be morbidly curious to see how the people responsible for this would react if they were all shopping at the same store one day when that store suddenly locked all of its doors to keep everyone inside while they did Muslim prayers. | Indi wrote: |
| i would be morbidly curious to see how the people responsible for this would react if they were all shopping at the same store one day when that store suddenly locked all of its doors to keep everyone inside while they did Muslim prayers. |
It does not go to that extreme in the Middle East, but there is access everywhere for prayers in shopping centres, the prayers are broadcasted right through the shopping centres, and some TV stations observe prayer times as well.
I think if the majority feel they need to have that in their lives, then there is nothing wrong with it. So there is nothing wrong with "God Bless America" to me, as Christianity is a majority religion in the US. Obviously it is wrong to eject those who do not observe it, but I'm not so sure that we know all the facts about this. I cannot imagine it happened like that.
To be truthful, US can do with as many blessings as it can find, whether Christian, Muslim, any religion. | deanhills wrote: |
| I think if the majority feel they need to have that in their lives, then there is nothing wrong with it. So there is nothing wrong with "God Bless America" to me, as Christianity is a majority religion in the US. Obviously it is wrong to eject those who do not observe it, but I'm not so sure that we know all the facts about this. I cannot imagine it happened like that. |
This is the same country that is just now removing legislation barring atheists from holding public office. This is the same country that forcefully takes down billboards with any hint of an attack on Christianity.
It may not have happened like the article said, but I don't see how it is hard to imagine it happening like that. It's not THAT crazy of an event given the country it took place in.
| Quote: |
| To be truthful, US can do with as many blessings as it can find, whether Christian, Muslim, any religion. |
Why?
It could do with people opening their eyes and attempting to better themselves for the sake of their community and country rather than blaming every bad thing on the Devil or constantly saying "God works in mysterious ways." | liljp617 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: |
| Quote: | | To be truthful, US can do with as many blessings as it can find, whether Christian, Muslim, any religion. |
|
Why? |
Because it is at least on the positive side of things. People wishing one another something good. Why knock something that is creating positive goodwill? I don't see anything wrong with it. Muslims do it every time when they greet one another, usually quite a long greeting for that matter, and when they walk away from one another that is something of goodwill that has just been given to one another.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| It could do with people opening their eyes and attempting to better themselves for the sake of their community and country rather than blaming every bad thing on the Devil or constantly saying "God works in mysterious ways." |
According to your beliefs? Quite a number of people who are sincerely devout people are doing OK and are happy with who they are. So they show that happiness by blessing everyone they can think about. That does not make them wrong, just thinking differently than you do. In the end all of us are going to die anyway. If they can be happy without questioning their beliefs and as long as they do not interfere with your beliefs, then I am happy for them. I may be the greater fool for trying to open my eyes and questioning everything. | deanhills wrote: |
| If they can be happy without questioning their beliefs and as long as they do not interfere with your beliefs, then I am happy for them. I may be the greater fool for trying to open my eyes and questioning everything. |
There in lies the issue. It is a rare thing to find someone with devout, unquestionable beliefs that do not effect other people, whether directly or indirectly. Beliefs that are expected to go unquestioned rarely lead to a positive end. | liljp617 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | If they can be happy without questioning their beliefs and as long as they do not interfere with your beliefs, then I am happy for them. I may be the greater fool for trying to open my eyes and questioning everything. |
There in lies the issue. It is a rare thing to find someone with devout, unquestionable beliefs that do not effect other people, whether directly or indirectly. |
Perhaps critics of these beliefs are guilty of the same when they are protesting loudly, just under a different label?
Reminds me of the Poem by DH Lawrence - "Worm Either Way". Perhaps a little cynical and extremist a la DH Lawrence style, but I think he gets the point through that having a more "enlightened" point of view does not necessarily make us any different from those whom we consider to have less "enlightened" points of view. In the end there is not much difference between the two of us: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/worm-either-way-2 | deanhills wrote: |
| I think if the majority feel they need to have that in their lives, then there is nothing wrong with it. So there is nothing wrong with "God Bless America" to me, as Christianity is a majority religion in the US. Obviously it is wrong to eject those who do not observe it, but I'm not so sure that we know all the facts about this. I cannot imagine it happened like that. |
How it happened only changes the judgement in that specific case. As i pointed out, clearly religious discrimination does exist at Yankee Stadium.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with playing "God Bless America" at a Yankees game. (i might even join in... although i prefer "Battle Hymn of the Republic", that goes "My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord...".) But it has nothing to do with how Christian America - or even just New York - is. If they wanted to play a Zoroastrian hymn, they're welcome to it. (i'd probably join in there, too, if i like it.)
No one is claiming that Yankee Stadium was wrong to play the song. However, it is wrong to eject people who don't want to hear it (who either don't stand while it plays, or simply walk out). That's just plain illegal in New York. As you say, we don't know if that's actually what happened here. But regardless, we do know that they prevent people from leaving while it is playing. That is just plain wrong, and no excuse should be made for Yankee Stadium for doing something so blatantly discriminatory.
As for the specific case of the guy who claimed he was thrown out, i'd say the evidence of institutionalized discrimination at Yankee Stadium will probably help his case... but whatever. His case is irrelevant (to us, but not to him, i'd suppose). We know as a fact that Yankee Stadium does discriminate, by the evidence of the chains.
| deanhills wrote: |
| To be truthful, US can do with as many blessings as it can find, whether Christian, Muslim, any religion. |
i can't speculate on how much the US needs "blessings". | deanhills wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | deanhills wrote: | | If they can be happy without questioning their beliefs and as long as they do not interfere with your beliefs, then I am happy for them. I may be the greater fool for trying to open my eyes and questioning everything. |
There in lies the issue. It is a rare thing to find someone with devout, unquestionable beliefs that do not effect other people, whether directly or indirectly. |
Perhaps critics of these beliefs are guilty of the same when they are protesting loudly, just under a different label?
Reminds me of the Poem by DH Lawrence - "Worm Either Way". Perhaps a little cynical and extremist a la DH Lawrence style, but I think he gets the point through that having a more "enlightened" point of view does not necessarily make us any different from those whom we consider to have less "enlightened" points of view. In the end there is not much difference between the two of us: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/worm-either-way-2 |
What am I protesting? People giving blessings? I don't care if they give blessings, but I don't see this inherent greatness and usefulness of blessings in reality, nor do I think my country as a whole would be able to make any use of them. It would be more beneficial if people, rather than saying "In the name of God, I hope things work out well," would get out and physically take part in making things turn out well. This isn't really a belief of mine, it's pretty general, realistic common sense in relation to a society.
But again, I've never seen a single person with unquestionable beliefs -- beliefs they expect/demand go unquestioned, beliefs they have on an infallible pedestal -- who doesn't allow those beliefs to effect others...usually negatively. | liljp617 wrote: |
What am I protesting? People giving blessings? I don't care if they give blessings, but I don't see this inherent greatness and usefulness of blessings in reality, nor do I think my country as a whole would be able to make any use of them. It would be more beneficial if people, rather than saying "In the name of God, I hope things work out well," would get out and physically take part in making things turn out well. This isn't really a belief of mine, it's pretty general, realistic common sense in relation to a society.
But again, I've never seen a single person with unquestionable beliefs -- beliefs they expect/demand go unquestioned, beliefs they have on an infallible pedestal -- who doesn't allow those beliefs to effect others...usually negatively. |
So would you say what you stated above is not a belief, and that it is positive?
I do not think your first paragraph is accurate, as people who participate competitively in sports, usually work quite hard at being good at it. Especially in the United States. Sort of lots at stake money wise in it too. If from a moral point of view they wish to include God in their support system, what harm can that do to anyone? What is negative about it?What's more important than taking a shit?
| deanhills wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | What am I protesting? People giving blessings? I don't care if they give blessings, but I don't see this inherent greatness and usefulness of blessings in reality, nor do I think my country as a whole would be able to make any use of them. It would be more beneficial if people, rather than saying "In the name of God, I hope things work out well," would get out and physically take part in making things turn out well. This isn't really a belief of mine, it's pretty general, realistic common sense in relation to a society.
But again, I've never seen a single person with unquestionable beliefs -- beliefs they expect/demand go unquestioned, beliefs they have on an infallible pedestal -- who doesn't allow those beliefs to effect others...usually negatively. |
So would you say what you stated above is not a belief, and that it is positive?
I do not think your first paragraph is accurate, as people who participate competitively in sports, usually work quite hard at being good at it. Especially in the United States. Sort of lots at stake money wise in it too. If from a moral point of view they wish to include God in their support system, what harm can that do to anyone? What is negative about it? |
Nothing. I just don't understand the view that this country somehow inherently needs as many blessings as it can get. | liljp617 wrote: |
| Nothing. I just don't understand the view that this country somehow inherently needs as many blessings as it can get. |
I believe that blessings are usually positive in nature. Usually they are positively received as well. Usually it is automatically done, and perhaps people do not pay much attention to it consciously, but it has to contain a goodwill message, if the receiver looks positively on the message. Since the majority of people are Christian, it would seem that the majority would look positively on the message (if and when they pay attention to it).
In the Middle East the blessings are Moslem and have the same positive effect on people. Something of goodwill.There are too many problems with this country, but America is just too slow fixing them.
| Arty wrote: |
| There are too many problems with this country, but America is just too slow fixing them. |
Looking on the good side of things. It took Europe several centuries to have one currency and even with a European Union, its Governments still are very independent from one another. The United States has 50 States and it is miraculously governing those 50 states with its 303 million people, with one language, one official flag, one President. US citizenship is very sought after as it is still a land of plenty for those who have the spirit and energy to make a contribution to it. Think when one starts to list all the plusses, this is a pretty phenomenal country.
