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Was Jesus just an inspired person?





HerbalTree
I think that there was a person named Jesus. I think he was human just like all the rest of us. I think he was very inspired... something like a nicolaus coppernicus. He believed in something strongly and was willing to die for it. I think now more than ever in history people need leaders like this and where have they been. Everyone is just lieing and looking to make money off of the not so fortunate.
liljp617
To put it lightly, I think he was a mentally ill, egotistical man with cult leader-like qualities and a 'political rebel' who angered the wrong people. Assuming his existence of course...
ocalhoun
"Inspired"

By what?
Xanatos
Well this first assumes that there was a historical Jesus, that the mythos are based upon...

Do you mean inspired as in enlightened? If there was a historical Jesus( A big if here considering all the evidence against it, but that is a topic for another time), I would probably say that he was like a slightly more modern Buddha. He just happened to rub some people the wrong way.

At Liljp-

I think that cult leaders are very inspired people. We tend to place a positive connotation on the word, but I think it takes a tremendous amount of creativity, intelligence, and inspiration to lead a cult.
redslazers
thats what i always through, becuase that would be the only thing on could really prove
liljp617
Xanatos wrote:
At Liljp-

I think that cult leaders are very inspired people. We tend to place a positive connotation on the word, but I think it takes a tremendous amount of creativity, intelligence, and inspiration to lead a cult.


It also usually requires one to be self-centered, egotistical, power hungry, inspire division among people (those who are in the cult are your friends, those who aren't are your enemies), many times separation of children from parents, false promises of great rewards, the end justifies the means, usually (dangerous) fanatical views, etc.

I guess they're inspired...I would say most are inspired by the wrong motives that often have much room to lead to fanaticism and violence in more ways than one.
deanhills
HerbalTree wrote:
I think that there was a person named Jesus. I think he was human just like all the rest of us. I think he was very inspired... something like a nicolaus coppernicus. He believed in something strongly and was willing to die for it. I think now more than ever in history people need leaders like this and where have they been. Everyone is just lieing and looking to make money off of the not so fortunate.
Well, I think we are limited to our own present day perception of what he used to be like, which we have learned from the Bible. Life was different then, and the story about Jesus has changed many hands. It's present day interpretation as related in the Bible is that of a person who inspired and motivated people, so possibly he had to have been inspired and motivated himself.
Whong
To put it very simply:

Jesus was, is and will always be the only begotten Son of God Almighty. He came to this world since His Father, God sent Him to be a ransom for our sins so that we may become the righteousness of God. Jesus is a man like we but He is also God. He isn't 50% man and 50% God, but rather He is 100% God and man. Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords and will soon come to establish His Kingdom on this earth and rule for a 1000 years. God sent the Holy Spirit to this world after Jesus ascended to Heaven because we can't become righteous and holy without His Divine power. Wink

Jesus is alive and is seated at the right hand of God the Father and will soon come to reign on this earth with all of His saints! Very Happy

Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited! Very Happy Wink
truespeed
Whong wrote:


Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited! Very Happy Wink


How would you recognize him?
liljp617
Whong wrote:
Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited! Very Happy Wink


This is the single most dangerous aspect of Christianity.

And the most annoying.
Xanatos
Whong wrote:
Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited!


I always found it funny that everyone thinks that his second coming will be in their lifetime. It hasn't happened in 2000 years, what makes you think it is going to happen now?
Afaceinthematrix
Whong wrote:
Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited! :D :wink:


Why would you be excited? I was under the impression that Jesus' second coming is going to be after years of hardship... I'd much rather live a fun and easy life on Earth and then die and go to Heaven... That way you never have to go through the years of hardship...

Xanatos wrote:
Whong wrote:
Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited!


I always found it funny that everyone thinks that his second coming will be in their lifetime. It hasn't happened in 2000 years, what makes you think it is going to happen now?



People like to think that they're special... People also go out of their way to "see the signs" that are around today... Maybe it has to do with that crappy book The Bible Code. Besides, it has to eventually happen so it gets more likely every day... And 2000 years isn't that long... There are people around today around 100 years old... That's already 5% of that time...
ocalhoun
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

Why would you be excited? I was under the impression that Jesus' second coming is going to be after years of hardship... I'd much rather live a fun and easy life on Earth and then die and go to Heaven... That way you never have to go through the years of hardship...

Eh, weren't the years of hardship supposed to come after the second coming? When all the true believers are enjoying heaven already?
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

Why would you be excited? I was under the impression that Jesus' second coming is going to be after years of hardship... I'd much rather live a fun and easy life on Earth and then die and go to Heaven... That way you never have to go through the years of hardship...

Eh, weren't the years of hardship supposed to come after the second coming? When all the true believers are enjoying heaven already?

Well, trying to put some logic into this nonsense is difficult. Might I recommend the wiki article on the rapture as a starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
miacps
Whong wrote:
Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords and will soon come to establish His Kingdom on this earth and rule for a 1000 years.


What happens after the thousand years is up? Reelection? Think
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I'd much rather live a fun and easy life on Earth and then die and go to Heaven... That way you never have to go through the years of hardship...
Think the meaning could easily be made that hardship and religion go hand in hand and that you can only have fun and an easy life if you are not religious. I thought life is hard period. Think the Buddhists have that understanding as well. Life is shitty. So if something nice happens, you get happy about it. But you accept that life in general sucks, as it does suck. And then you die. If someone can find some temporary reprieve from that in their religion, then I am very happy for them. As long as they do not judge me or try and convert me or worry about my mental state. Smile
Whong
Xanatos wrote:
Whong wrote:
Just can't wait for His coming, I'm so so exited!


I always found it funny that everyone thinks that his second coming will be in their lifetime. It hasn't happened in 2000 years, what makes you think it is going to happen now?


All the signs point to that that His coming is very very close, right at the door. However, I never stated that I expect Him to come during my lifetime. If He comes during my lifetime or not I'll still meet Him in the air at His arrival! Wink

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Whether He comes during my lifetime or not I'll still be with Him when He comes! Very Happy

Praise be to God Almighty, our righteous Father, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen.
Whong
Sorry guys for posting three times, something wrong with my computer. I'm really sorry for the extra posts. Sad Embarassed

Can someone please delete the extra posts. Thank you
[MOD - done! (Bikerman)]
Whong
miacps wrote:
Whong wrote:
Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords and will soon come to establish His Kingdom on this earth and rule for a 1000 years.


What happens after the thousand years is up? Reelection? Think


After the thousand year reign Satan will be released for a little while and he will again deceive the world and gather the people to fight agains God. God will destroy Satan and his army and Satan will be cast into hell. The earth and the heavens will pass away and the last judgement will take place. After this God will create a new Earth and new Heavens for those who love Him, believe in His Son Jesus Christ and obey His commands. Nothing corrupt, evil or wicked will ever enter that new world. We will spend the eternity with God in a perfect world! Very Happy Sadly they who reject God's Son Jesus Christ and fight against Him will have a horrible eternity in hell with the devil and his demons being tormented for ever and ever day and night without rest.

You can read about it in Revelation chapters 20 - 22. Wink
liljp617
Whong wrote:
miacps wrote:
Whong wrote:
Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords and will soon come to establish His Kingdom on this earth and rule for a 1000 years.


What happens after the thousand years is up? Reelection? Think


After the thousand year reign Satan will be released for a little while and he will again deceive the world and gather the people to fight agains God. God will destroy Satan and his army and Satan will be cast into hell. The earth and the heavens will pass away and the last judgement will take place. After this God will create a new Earth and new Heavens for those who love Him, believe in His Son Jesus Christ and obey His commands. Nothing corrupt, evil or wicked will ever enter that new world. We will spend the eternity with God in a perfect world! Very Happy Sadly they who reject God's Son Jesus Christ and fight against Him will have a horrible eternity in hell with the devil and his demons being tormented for ever and ever day and night without rest.

You can read about it in Revelation chapters 20 - 22. Wink


Who's keeping Satan locked up? And they release him for the sole purpose of allowing him to wreak havoc? Slightly odd. Sort of like letting Charles Manson out just for fun...

A perfect world would be boring. Boring as boring gets.

I'd rather take the word of the hobo on the corner than read some hermetical, paranoid, crazy account of the end of the world as we know it.
ocalhoun
liljp617 wrote:

A perfect world would be boring. Boring as boring gets.

Quite wrong. A boring world would not be perfect, so a perfect world can't be boring.
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
liljp617 wrote:

A perfect world would be boring. Boring as boring gets.

Quite wrong. A boring world would not be perfect, so a perfect world can't be boring.

Err...well, that sort of depends on whether you think the concepts of 'boring' and 'perfect' are universals or whether they are more subjective. I tend to the latter viewpoint, in which case there could be no 'universal perfect' world.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
liljp617 wrote:

A perfect world would be boring. Boring as boring gets.

Quite wrong. A boring world would not be perfect, so a perfect world can't be boring.
Would that not be wrong either? Is there such a thing as a "perfect world" or a "boring world"?
Greatking
For 2000 years men and women who walked upon the face of the earth spoke of His birth and life on Earth. Even before He waas born the things He was to to was spoken and written of for generations till He came, so how can that be inspiring???.

Jesus in fact is God who came to earth in the flesh to reveal Himself to men and to show us the other side and dimemsion of His emense live for mankind to inform, direct, teach and prepare us for the life ahead of us. To bring man the relization of who man is and where we came from, to deliver our minds and consciens from the fabricated lie and artificail intelligence that is all around us.

Jesus did not do the things he did because he believed in something very strong, He was that strong thing. He could therefore have not been inspired or enlightened in any way.

And he is surely coming back to fulfill all the things said and written about HIM.
Whong
Greatking wrote:


And he is surely coming back to fulfill all the things said and written about HIM.



Hallelujah! Amen. That's true! He will return very soon.
Solon_Poledourus
Whong wrote:
Hallelujah! Amen. That's true! He will return very soon.

The authors of Thessalonians said he would come back in their lifetimes. It's sad how much hope people put into something that never seems to happen.
Bikerman
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
Whong wrote:
Hallelujah! Amen. That's true! He will return very soon.

The authors of Thessalonians said he would come back in their lifetimes. It's sad how much hope people put into something that never seems to happen.

Indeed. The early Christians were believers in the apocalyptic version of events - that the second coming was at hand (bear in mind that most were fairly devout Jews). The Jews believe we are still waiting for the first coming whereas most Christians believe we have had the first coming and are waiting for the second...ho hum.
One is reminded of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - "Let's hear it for the great prophet Zarquon"
shwelfszen
In my opinion, no religion is realistitic in its approach and promotes blind faith.

The prophets probably marketed a set of common rules and regulations because there would have been a lot of corruption, crime and adultery(different forms) in ancient times.

After all it is fun to see Men controlled by some philosophy rather than seeing them be aggressive, sexual and dumb. Smile

I bet the prophets were either foolish or had a blast in fooling and playing with the sentiments of dominant men. We all know what kind of boys behave the same way. Wink
Whong
Jesus Himself gave us signs to look for that will appear before His second coming. Matthew 24.

The world events are certainly heading towards His second coming especially now that Obama is president of the US. He is forming alianses with the muslim countries just as Putin has been doing since for quiet a long time. They are also planning on getting one world leader which undoubtedly will be the antichrist who will for an alliance with Israel for 7 years and break it in the middle and we will see the biggest wave of antisemitism in history. But the Lord Jesus Christ will come and destroy the antichrist and the false prophet by the breath of His mouth.

Read the Bible and see how God's plan is unfolding!
shwelfszen
I disagree.
God has a hell lot of things to care about.
He would be busy creating a perfect world in some other planet rather than destroying ours.

Also, he needs to spend time for the plants, birds and animals.
We humans are the antichrist who has depleting natural resources from the planet.

God does not need to destroy our planet. We will do it ourselves one day.
Bikerman
Whong wrote:
Jesus Himself gave us signs to look for that will appear before His second coming. Matthew 24.

The world events are certainly heading towards His second coming especially now that Obama is president of the US. He is forming alianses with the muslim countries just as Putin has been doing since for quiet a long time. They are also planning on getting one world leader which undoubtedly will be the antichrist who will for an alliance with Israel for 7 years and break it in the middle and we will see the biggest wave of antisemitism in history. But the Lord Jesus Christ will come and destroy the antichrist and the false prophet by the breath of His mouth.

Read the Bible and see how God's plan is unfolding!

I can't decide whether this rubbish is hilariously funny or deeply depressing. It is pretty funny (you could imagine if forming the basis of a Marvel Comic Strip) but it is also depressing that anyone could actually take this seriously...
liljp617
Bikerman wrote:
Whong wrote:
Jesus Himself gave us signs to look for that will appear before His second coming. Matthew 24.

The world events are certainly heading towards His second coming especially now that Obama is president of the US. He is forming alianses with the muslim countries just as Putin has been doing since for quiet a long time. They are also planning on getting one world leader which undoubtedly will be the antichrist who will for an alliance with Israel for 7 years and break it in the middle and we will see the biggest wave of antisemitism in history. But the Lord Jesus Christ will come and destroy the antichrist and the false prophet by the breath of His mouth.

Read the Bible and see how God's plan is unfolding!

I can't decide whether this rubbish is hilariously funny or deeply depressing. It is pretty funny (you could imagine if forming the basis of a Marvel Comic Strip) but it is also depressing that anyone could actually take this seriously...


It actually makes me slightly sick to my stomach. I can somewhat deal with the nutcase conspiracy theories and paranoia, it's the fact that people who spew this stuff are ecstatic about what it asserts will happen...
Solon_Poledourus
Whong the Prophet wrote:
Jesus Himself gave us signs to look for that will appear before His second coming. Matthew 24.

The world events are certainly heading towards His second coming especially now that Obama is president of the US. He is forming alianses with the muslim countries just as Putin has been doing since for quiet a long time. They are also planning on getting one world leader which undoubtedly will be the antichrist who will for an alliance with Israel for 7 years and break it in the middle and we will see the biggest wave of antisemitism in history. But the Lord Jesus Christ will come and destroy the antichrist and the false prophet by the breath of His mouth.

Read the Bible and see how God's plan is unfolding!

If I had a dollar for every time in the past 2,000 years some nutball just knew the messiah would come in their lifetimes... I'd have more money than the Sultan of Brunai. This apocalyptic vision/messiah cometh crap is just annoying anymore.
It's like a bad movie sequel - Return of the 2,000 year old Jewish Zombie: PART 10(at least!)
Hmmmm... I got an idea for a movie...
Whong
Well, I can't force you to believe it nor will I even try. I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free.
Solon_Poledourus
Whong wrote:
Well, I can't force you to believe it nor will I even try. I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free.

I find it fascinating that many religious people often refer to their doctrine as "the truth". Jehovas Witnesses do the same thing. Only in religion are people allowed and encouraged to consider something as concrete, factual, or the truth, without a shred of evidence to support it.
Yet, when one points out the institutionalized bigotry, hatred, fear mongering, ignorance, violence, mass murder and genocide, of which these religions have been a party to, the response is always one of two things: "That was in the past", and/or "That was the church, not the religion".
So I'm going to explore those answers.
"That was in the past" - Imagine if I punch you in the face every day for 10 years. Then suddenly I stop. Now it's in the past. Does that make it OK? Even if I apologize? Ask a woman who's been raped if it's OK to let their attacker out of prison. After all, it was in the past.
"That was the church, not the religion" - Distancing yourself from the church is a cop-out, at best. It's complaicance. I don't see a whole lot of Christians criticizing their church for being associated with an organization that has been responsible for more death than any other single group in history. If you want to convince me that you don't support those actions, but still believe in the religion, then start mobilizing against that institution. Otherwise, you are as guilty as Nazi sympathizers who sat by as people were killed in gas chambers, and said "it wasn't me, I'm just a member of the Nazi political party, not a killer".
liljp617
Whong wrote:
Well, I can't force you to believe it nor will I even try. I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free.


The truth is nobody knows anything and I'll politely ask you to stop pretending a book that only bothers to mention the "virgin birth" in two of the gospels (a slightly important detail I would think) isn't that awesome of a source. Stop pretending.
deanhills
Whong wrote:
Well, I can't force you to believe it nor will I even try. I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free.
Looks as though you tried anyway! Smile
tingkagol
Whong wrote:
Well, I can't force you to believe it nor will I even try. I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free.

It still amazes me that THIS is the only line of preaching evangelists/missionaries do. To be able to know the truth, one must be willing to listen to it. In other words, surrender. I understand how people can take that road because in that case finding the truth would be easy (Truth=Jesus & The Bible). Of course knowing him and the bible needs examination and work, but at least you've identified your targets to officially start your "search", hence...

Whong wrote:
I just wish you'd know what the truth is so that the Truth can set you free


I strongly believe though that there is still truth outside religion and beyond it, and I really hate it when religious folks treat the non-religious like ignorant lost sheep and force it upon them (likewise, those who actively attack/oppose religion are no better).

I guess what I wanted to say to Whong was: We CAN coexist.
&
I respect your freedom to express yourself but please be careful where you preach. Other people find it insulting.
deanhills
tingkagol wrote:
I really hate it when religious folks treat the non-religious like ignorant lost sheep and force it upon them (likewise, those who actively attack/oppose religion are no better).
I was thinking about this last night. Why is it so inherent in people of religion to want to go out and get people to believe in what they believe? This whole business of conversion and assuming that those who do not think the same are wrong, mistaken, deluded or on their way to an awful place sounds "unchristian" to me. Think it says in the Bible somewhere that God is the only one who can judge, however here we find mere mortals not only feeling completely righteous to judge other mortals who happen to think differently than they do, but also feeling compelled and righteous to make it a mission to change their thinking. Sort of does not make sense to me.
vineeth
For me, Jesus was a man who realized his identity with the Self, or the God in popular terms. Such persons are there in every country and religions, as Mohammed in Islam and Budhha of India.

He lived a motivating life and directed all to seek the "Kingdom of God within us first before seeking everything else". As he was born in a community which is too immature to conceive such high spiritual ideals, he was widely misinterpreted like most of the holy men in the world.

In India and within Hinduism, we respect them as the one who already reached the state of oneness with reality, the goal of human life. We don't call him as the son of god specifically as we consider each one of us are sons of god but we don't know that. The difference is in this knowledge.
tingkagol
vineeth wrote:
For me, Jesus was a man who realized his identity with the Self, or the God in popular terms. Such persons are there in every country and religions, as Mohammed in Islam and Budhha of India.

This is interesting. How can god be synonymous to the self? Isn't that a bit atheistic? Anyway, I also posted my confusions about "the self" in a different thread, though I didn't want to connect the dots religiously.

deanhills wrote:
Think it says in the Bible somewhere that God is the only one who can judge, however here we find mere mortals not only feeling completely righteous to judge other mortals who happen to think differently than they do, but also feeling compelled and righteous to make it a mission to change their thinking. Sort of does not make sense to me.

This is very true. And as much as I want to co-exist with these people, this really annoys me. Preaching is so insulting. Come to think of it, it makes me feel like the Pharisees when Jesus came to Jerusalem. Smile
deanhills
tingkagol wrote:
Preaching is so insulting.
Agreed, it immediately assumes the position that you are completely lacking in knowledge, or deluded. I've never been good with black and white points of view either, I believe most of life falls in the grey areas, some of which has not been discovered yet. We're too limited to be able to climb up on a soap box and claim knowledge of absolute truths. We could put out theories forward for debate and have a "perhaps" or "likely" in front of statements, but claiming absolute knowledge, does not make sense to me.
Solon_Poledourus
deanhills wrote:
I was thinking about this last night. Why is it so inherent in people of religion to want to go out and get people to believe in what they believe? This whole business of conversion and assuming that those who do not think the same are wrong, mistaken, deluded or on their way to an awful place sounds "unchristian" to me. Think it says in the Bible somewhere that God is the only one who can judge, however here we find mere mortals not only feeling completely righteous to judge other mortals who happen to think differently than they do, but also feeling compelled and righteous to make it a mission to change their thinking. Sort of does not make sense to me.

Many non-Christians are confused by the compulsion to convert. This is a MAJOR part of being a Christian; "Spreading the Gospel". It's part of what defines them. In centuries past, this simply meant to go out and discuss the religion in a public place with whoever would listen. In more recent times, they have taken it to the next level of conversion. There are even small branches of Christians in the US who believe they will go to Hell if they don't constantly attempt to convert non-believers.
Very scary stuff, I think.
vineeth
"The realization of the truth is the essential thing. Whether you bathe in the Ganga for a thousand years or live on vegetable food for a like period, unless it helps toward the manifestation of the Self, know that it is all of no use."
- Swami Vivekananda


This is one of the basic foundations of Indian philosophy and religion. What ever you do in the name of god or religion should be to reach that state which Jesus and Buddha experienced. I feels that Jesus also said the same thing, "First seek the kingdom and god and everything else will come then".

Experience is that matters !
deanhills
Solon_Poledourus wrote:
Many non-Christians are confused by the compulsion to convert. This is a MAJOR part of being a Christian; "Spreading the Gospel". It's part of what defines them. In centuries past, this simply meant to go out and discuss the religion in a public place with whoever would listen. In more recent times, they have taken it to the next level of conversion. There are even small branches of Christians in the US who believe they will go to Hell if they don't constantly attempt to convert non-believers.
Very scary stuff, I think.
Agreed. And I think what you say is true. "Spreading the Gospel" is spot on. I had forgotten about that. I don't think I'm good material for anyone who wishes to do that though. I can't remember when last someone tried to convert me. I stayed with Mormons for a while in Calgary, AB, and they never tried to convert me, although I know for a fact that is part of their credo. My family are also very devout Christians, but there has been no attempts on their part to convert me. I've been living amonst 99% moslems for the last 7/8 years and apart from a little leaflet perhaps once every second year under my door, have not been approached once. So possibly I'm safe in that respect. So far anyway .... Smile
Whong
tingkagol wrote:

I respect your freedom to express yourself but please be careful where you preach. Other people find it insulting.


I am under obligation to speak forth the Word of God. God will hold me responsible if I don't worn people about the coming wrath and the tell them about the grace of God. I must rather obey God than men. Wink
Bikerman
Whong wrote:
tingkagol wrote:

I respect your freedom to express yourself but please be careful where you preach. Other people find it insulting.


I am under obligation to speak forth the Word of God. God will hold me responsible if I don't worn people about the coming wrath and the tell them about the grace of God. I must rather obey God than men. Wink

Err..no. You THINK that God will hold you responsible. You THINK that you are doing the will of God. You are no different, really, to many religious zealots who think they are 'doing God's will'. I suppose you are one of the more harmless types who stick to posting their delusions on boards like this - and that is fine because everyone has the right to their opinions. No doubt you think you understand the will of God - my opinion is that you are simply deluded.
liljp617
Whong wrote:
tingkagol wrote:

I respect your freedom to express yourself but please be careful where you preach. Other people find it insulting.


I am under obligation to speak forth the Word of God. God will hold me responsible if I don't worn people about the coming wrath and the tell them about the grace of God. I must rather obey God than men. Wink


I'm under obligation to tell you to keep it to yourself or not be so condescending when you do preach it.
Whong
Ezekiel 12:1-2 The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

Call me deluded or whatever you wish, I don't care. I don't pass judgment on you; "for vengeance is Mine" says the LORD of hosts.

I'm not going to wage war here for the Truth since that isn't the way to do it. It is my job to tell you about it and then let you decide what you will do. Wink

He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 11:15
liljp617
Whong wrote:
I don't pass judgment on you


Clearly you have and continue to.

Whong wrote:
Ezekiel 12:1-2 The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.


Quite ironic considering the assumed Jesus was the one doing the rebelling and law breaking.

Whong wrote:
He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 11:15


We have certainly heard it. Many of us way too many times to give a damn. We understand your point (that goes for preaching Christians everywhere), now get on with your life.
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
... now get on with your life.
Perhaps many Christians are on a mission by the nature of their religion, and this is their way of getting on with their lives ... Question
ParsaAkbari
Who ever jesus was he created religion so it cant be a bad thing.
Bikerman
ParsaAkbari wrote:
Who ever jesus was he created religion so it cant be a bad thing.

Err...an untrue statement following by a dodgy generalisation.
Jesus certainly didn't create religion and it certainly CAN be a bad thing....
liljp617
Bikerman wrote:
ParsaAkbari wrote:
Who ever jesus was he created religion so it cant be a bad thing.

Err...an untrue statement following by a dodgy generalisation.
Jesus certainly didn't create religion and it certainly CAN be a bad thing....


As far as I know, he didn't really even create his own religion...just became the focal point of it. Could be wrong of course, but I remember Indi giving a brief history of the origins of Christianity a while back and much of what Christianity was/is already existed before Jesus.
Afaceinthematrix
liljp617 wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
ParsaAkbari wrote:
Who ever jesus was he created religion so it cant be a bad thing.

Err...an untrue statement following by a dodgy generalisation.
Jesus certainly didn't create religion and it certainly CAN be a bad thing....


As far as I know, he didn't really even create his own religion...just became the focal point of it. Could be wrong of course, but I remember Indi giving a brief history of the origins of Christianity a while back and much of what Christianity was/is already existed before Jesus.


Uhhh... No. I'm pretty sure that Christianity began in the mid-first century. I am almost 100 percent sure that Christianity began after the death of Jesus (if he existed). Although I do not think that Jesus had a huge role in the actual development of it. From what I've read, I think he (again, this is all assuming he existed) set down many of the principles and some Jewish sects began developing the religion. If Jesus didn't exist, then there were probably people who he was based off that came up with many of the aspects of the religion.
liljp617
Here's the original post I was trying to remember (evidently my memory didn't serve me well!) and I worded what I was saying pretty badly haha

Indi wrote:
Actually, that's not necessarily true. The "official" histories of Christianity always emphasize that it was a spontaneous creation by a messianic figurehead - this is what is peddled in various flavours in Christianity proper, Islam and so on. But the truth is far murkier.

In fact, it may be that - ironically enough - Christianity evolved.

First century (BCE and CE) Isreal was a time of considerable religious flux - new religions were created pretty much on a daily basis, "messiahs" popped up with alarming regularity. The official church position will even acknowledge this fact because it gives them an excuse for why Jesus wasn't big news at the time: he was only one of an untold number of messiahs that collected flocks at the time. We can't even begin to figure on how many little cults and sects were around at the time that Jesus allegedly lived.

Most of these cults took elements from other successful cults (something you can still see happening today - even the wackiest of UFO cults cheerfully accepts Jesus as an alien plot). It is now believed that what eventually became the Christianity we know today evolved from dozens of such cults, incorporating elements from Judaism, the cult of Mithras (which was dominant at the time but is dead now) several Egyptian folk religions, and maybe many more that have been lost forever in the sands of time.

Furthermore, it also appears that Christianity was not one single cult, but dozens of cults, each with slightly different takes on the story. In some cults, Jesus was the messiah (and what we have today descended from one or more of those), in others, John the Baptist, Peter, or Mary. It may be that someone started a cult about John the Baptist, then someone added Mary, then someone added Jesus, then... etc. etc. So basically, there is no single source, just like there is no single source for Robin Hood, King Arthur or any of the Roman, Greek or Egyptian religions. They evolved, slowly, over hundreds of years, with hundreds of authors adding to the mythology.

There's little extant evidence of this happening to Christianity in its early days... because much of Christianity's early history was retroactively rewritten (or destroyed) by the church when it became dominant. But there is tons of evidence of this happening to other religions at the time. And... there is evidence for this happening to Christianity within the Bible. Paul mentions in one of his letters that he is writing to refute all of the other versions of Christianity that exist. And John the Baptist explicity denies being the messiah (before coming to a bad end)... why?... as a slap in the face to Johannine cults. Other evidence is the various apocryphal "gospels" like Judas and Thomas, all giving alternate takes on things.
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
Here's the original post I was trying to remember (evidently my memory didn't serve me well!) and I worded what I was saying pretty badly haha

Indi wrote:
Actually, that's not necessarily true. The "official" histories of Christianity always emphasize that it was a spontaneous creation by a messianic figurehead - this is what is peddled in various flavours in Christianity proper, Islam and so on. But the truth is far murkier.

In fact, it may be that - ironically enough - Christianity evolved.

First century (BCE and CE) Isreal was a time of considerable religious flux - new religions were created pretty much on a daily basis, "messiahs" popped up with alarming regularity. The official church position will even acknowledge this fact because it gives them an excuse for why Jesus wasn't big news at the time: he was only one of an untold number of messiahs that collected flocks at the time. We can't even begin to figure on how many little cults and sects were around at the time that Jesus allegedly lived.

Most of these cults took elements from other successful cults (something you can still see happening today - even the wackiest of UFO cults cheerfully accepts Jesus as an alien plot). It is now believed that what eventually became the Christianity we know today evolved from dozens of such cults, incorporating elements from Judaism, the cult of Mithras (which was dominant at the time but is dead now) several Egyptian folk religions, and maybe many more that have been lost forever in the sands of time.

Furthermore, it also appears that Christianity was not one single cult, but dozens of cults, each with slightly different takes on the story. In some cults, Jesus was the messiah (and what we have today descended from one or more of those), in others, John the Baptist, Peter, or Mary. It may be that someone started a cult about John the Baptist, then someone added Mary, then someone added Jesus, then... etc. etc. So basically, there is no single source, just like there is no single source for Robin Hood, King Arthur or any of the Roman, Greek or Egyptian religions. They evolved, slowly, over hundreds of years, with hundreds of authors adding to the mythology.

There's little extant evidence of this happening to Christianity in its early days... because much of Christianity's early history was retroactively rewritten (or destroyed) by the church when it became dominant. But there is tons of evidence of this happening to other religions at the time. And... there is evidence for this happening to Christianity within the Bible. Paul mentions in one of his letters that he is writing to refute all of the other versions of Christianity that exist. And John the Baptist explicity denies being the messiah (before coming to a bad end)... why?... as a slap in the face to Johannine cults. Other evidence is the various apocryphal "gospels" like Judas and Thomas, all giving alternate takes on things.
So is Christianity then a cult, not a religion?
BinahZ
If J existed he most definitely was no more than a man. At the most a insurgent with some interesting ideas.
The people who stated that he was G-d amaze me. I cannot help but wonder who was watching the universe while the baby"god" was having his diaper changed or crawling around on the ground because he hadnt learned to walk yet. To me this is beyond ludicrous. And to those who believe he was a messiah, most xtians I have met have no idea what the messianic qualifiers are. Painting the target around the arrow has been very beneficial for many.
LimpFish
liljp617 wrote:
To put it lightly, I think he was a mentally ill, egotistical man with cult leader-like qualities and a 'political rebel' who angered the wrong people. Assuming his existence of course...


To you, xanathos and the other who seem to (incorrectly) think it is reasonable to doubt Jesus' existence. If you decide that Jesus' very existence should be doubted, based on the facts and evidence that historians always use to decide whether or not someone existed and/or what he/she did etc, you would have to doubt that Julius Caesar, Nero, Alexander the great, (and pretty much every other historian person that we all accept for fact that they lived) first, because the evidence of that Jesus actually lived is way bigger. There are way more manuscripts describing Him than most other historic persons etc..

Then ofcourse, whether he was the Son of God or not, is hard to prove through manuscripts. But that the person Jesus existed, to doubt that is actually not even reasonable if you claim to be scientific.

Just pointing that out Very Happy
Bikerman
LimpFish wrote:
There are way more manuscripts describing Him than most other historic persons etc..
Repeating a lie will not make it true. This has been comprehensively dealt with in other threads. There is NO contemporaneous evidence for Jesus at all - not a scrap. The documentary evidence that DOES exist is very scant - we have the gospels - written up to 3 generations later, and containing much which is contradictory (where and when was he born? for example). We have a passing mention by a historian in the 2nd Century - Tacitus, and a much disputed reference in Josephus. That is the lot.
liljp617
LimpFish wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
To put it lightly, I think he was a mentally ill, egotistical man with cult leader-like qualities and a 'political rebel' who angered the wrong people. Assuming his existence of course...


To you, xanathos and the other who seem to (incorrectly) think it is reasonable to doubt Jesus' existence. If you decide that Jesus' very existence should be doubted, based on the facts and evidence that historians always use to decide whether or not someone existed and/or what he/she did etc, you would have to doubt that Julius Caesar, Nero, Alexander the great, (and pretty much every other historian person that we all accept for fact that they lived) first, because the evidence of that Jesus actually lived is way bigger. There are way more manuscripts describing Him than most other historic persons etc..

Then ofcourse, whether he was the Son of God or not, is hard to prove through manuscripts. But that the person Jesus existed, to doubt that is actually not even reasonable if you claim to be scientific.

Just pointing that out Very Happy


I think you should do a tad more research into your claims before pronouncing them so strongly.
diabolical
This post is pretty accrate. Jesus WAS a real person. But more of a "cult" leader than an "inspired" person. If he would have tried that nowdays and in the US the govt. would have taken him out just as they did David Coresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas.
deanhills
diabolical wrote:
This post is pretty accrate. Jesus WAS a real person. But more of a "cult" leader than an "inspired" person. If he would have tried that nowdays and in the US the govt. would have taken him out just as they did David Coresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas.
Would be great if you could provide some factual evidence to back up your statements. For example, what proof is there that Jesus was a real person? How do you know for sure he WAS a real person? What is the difference between a cult leader and an inspired person? I thought all cult leaders would be inspired by something. How would you define a cult leader?
Bannik
liljp617 wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
To put it lightly, I think he was a mentally ill, egotistical man with cult leader-like qualities and a 'political rebel' who angered the wrong people. Assuming his existence of course...


To you, xanathos and the other who seem to (incorrectly) think it is reasonable to doubt Jesus' existence. If you decide that Jesus' very existence should be doubted, based on the facts and evidence that historians always use to decide whether or not someone existed and/or what he/she did etc, you would have to doubt that Julius Caesar, Nero, Alexander the great, (and pretty much every other historian person that we all accept for fact that they lived) first, because the evidence of that Jesus actually lived is way bigger. There are way more manuscripts describing Him than most other historic persons etc..

Then ofcourse, whether he was the Son of God or not, is hard to prove through manuscripts. But that the person Jesus existed, to doubt that is actually not even reasonable if you claim to be scientific.

Just pointing that out Very Happy


I think you should do a tad more research into your claims before pronouncing them so strongly.


I was thinking the same thing cause i swear Julius Caesar has more proof then jesus like I dont know the ancient currancy with his face all over it? or maybe the thousands and thousands mentions of him...
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