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Do we have freedom of expression in our relationships?





Bluedoll
Have found that real people who write online can be crudely bashed for writing.

Every thing we write seems to be controversial. I understand that part but why do some people insist on making points with discourteous assaults? Is it done so that anyone with a different viewpoint will submit to their way of thinking without question?

Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal.
If I were to write for example, “I love people. I love writing and good debates. I love God. I love sexual exploration. I love being able to express myself. I love all these things together.”

Depending on the kind of response recieved, I might never want to write again.
Or not?

Appreciate your comments.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Have found that real people who write online can be crudely bashed for writing.

Every thing we write seems to be controversial. I understand that part but why do some people insist on making points with discourteous assaults? Is it done so that anyone with a different viewpoint will submit to their way of thinking without question?

It happens all over the internet.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=872236#872236

Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal.
If I were to write for example, “I love people. I love writing and good debates. I love God. I love sexual exploration. I love being able to express myself. I love all these things together.”

Depending on the kind of response recieved, I might never want to write again.
Or not?

Appreciate your comments.


Big thing is not take this personally. As it does not have anything to do with you as a person, but the actual debate itself. This could be a good practice for you to stand up for your point of view, and to debate it, with focus on your point of view, rather than your reaction to confrontational debate. The two people who you thought were abusive towards you, were actually not focussed on you, but on your points of view. Their theory is that you have a right to any theory and they respect that right. But they do not have to agree with your theory, nor respect your views, unless you can back those up with scientific evidence.

It would be a shame if you never wrote again as you may be passing up an opportunity to deal constructively and positively with confrontation, as this "abuse", which is not really abuse, may come your way again. I suggest that you go back to your point of view, and do your research, and when you enter into debate make sure that you are well prepared and can back up what you say with meaningful evidence. Also remember that these guys are very experienced in debate, and that experience did not come overnight. They have been around the proverbial discussion block a number of times so are seasoned debaters. They also had to go through what you are going through now, and they also had to learn not to take the debate personally. It is not about you as a person, as definitely they respect you as a person, but it is always about your argument. If you can remember that, including to only focus on their arguments rather than their style of debate, then it may be easier to deal with confrontational debate. Smile
TrueFact
Well, I'll post my 2 cents about it as deanhills analyzed fully.
I like to think about it like this:
"My point of view is right, but might be wrong! Your point of view, contrast or different than mine, is wrong but might be right!"
Think about this way, and you'll find nothing personal. I give the same advice here deanhills gave earlier. Nothing is personal in the end.

Good luck
Bluedoll
Thank you both TrueFact and deanhills for your insights, I do appreciate them and deanhills you have helped me in the past.

I want to point out though that the posts (at the link that was referred to) were all acceptable except for one that I took offence to. The other posts were great as they apply to the problem at hand - answering the question given in the topic. Fantastic!

However, I will continue to feel things personally as I write and read. It is just as easy to say “what are you talking about, this is so false, what do you mean, I don’t understand this” or anything other than what was written which was....

“What in the blue Hell are you talking about?”

My online name is important to me and I have established a personal identity to it. I felt this line was a slur on my identity and nothing to do with the topic. I do have a right to feel things. I have no problem with peoples opinions and views though.

Yes, I do agree in dealing with topics from a far sometimes fo it is an excellent way to to deliberate to a point but certainly have no desire to debate like the “investigator” from the movie the matrix in conversation with mr anderson.

It is true in science, an argument is an equation. In an argument we have two sides 1=2 -1.

I understand what it meant to “attack” an argument however do not want to remove my personal attitudes from the equation. You see, I believe that everywhere we are real people with real feelings.

I also believe women make great scientists and that we can debate effectively without becoming a seasoned debater following a convention that is obviously flawed.

I do wonder about our communication ablities in relationships be it in our life or while online because for some people if we feel we can not express or listen to each other in a way that is advantagious then perhaps silence is a better option.

In short, I do want to write, I do want constructive feedback (pro or against what is being presented) but I do not want to under any circumstances to remove my personal feelings out of the chemistry because my personal feelings matter too and are very much part of me and my writing.

Besides, sometimes it is our feelings and our intuition (it is real too) that leads us in the right direction and not just the facts. I belief this because in the end, it is the truth that matters.

And it is the truth that sets us free.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
However, I will continue to feel things personally as I write and read. It is just as easy to say “what are you talking about, this is so false, what do you mean, I don’t understand this” or anything other than what was written which was....

“What in the blue Hell are you talking about?”

My online name is important to me and I have established a personal identity to it. I felt this line was a slur on my identity and nothing to do with the topic. I do have a right to feel things. I have no problem with peoples opinions and views though.

I think you got it wrong here, and it is a pity that you are making this into something that it never was and taking it much more personally than what you should. Have you had a look at Matrix's postings? Do yourself a favour and look at his contributions to Frihost discussions, as they have always been of the highest quality.

Bluedoll wrote:
I also believe women make great scientists and that we can debate effectively without becoming a seasoned debater following a convention that is obviously flawed.

I don't understand why you are bringing this up? Some of the greatest debaters on Frihost are women. And they are seasoned debaters as well. I do not understand what you mean by "following a convention that is obviously flawed?" What convention is it and why is it flawed?

Bluedoll wrote:
In short, I do want to write, I do want constructive feedback (pro or against what is being presented) but I do not want to under any circumstances to remove my personal feelings out of the chemistry because my personal feelings matter too and are very much part of me and my writing.
I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying here. A forum is a public place and we usually keep our personal feelings to ourselves in a public place. The focus here needs to be on the debate and the factual content of the debate, not on ourselves and our personal feelings.
Bluedoll
Sure will answer your questions, deanhills. I am happy you are posting and reading me. Really, I am, thank you.

..... but not making anything into something that never was though. My online name is Bluedoll and I really do not like someone writing - what in the blue hell are you talking about. I just do not think that is very nice and the writer should have been man enough to apologize to me, not get on the defensive. I certainly pay attention to a writers views but can respond as well.

I also believe I am right about being able to display our feelings . . . anywhere. That includes a public place. Yes, I agree we need to focus on a debate with factual content providing the topic is suited for it and do realize the advantages of doing so. However, I certainly choose not to communicate for example on topics about say children or some other subjects with a cold detachment.

I feel very strongly about my right to write what and how I want providing that I am not hurting someone else and I can not see how writing facts with feelings attached is hurting someone.

-------------------------------------------

Let me demonstrate what I mean. Say I write this.

An apple that falls out of a tree hits the ground due to gravity and this event makes me quiver with excitement to witness the wonders of the universe.

And say someone under me writes this.

Hay blue head you have apples in the brain, you don’t even understand the forces involved. What are you talking about? Leave your personal feelings out of it!

-------------------------------------

I know it is a rather crude simplified example but I am hoping you will see my point. And by the way, the quality of such postings in my mind are low because the strength is not in the reasoning ability of the piece but only in the ability to put down and diminish another person as an individual with a voice. Therefore, if I feel ‘bullied’ I simply will state that with conviction as well.

---------------------------------------

What I meant by “following a convention that is obviously flawed” is really directed to any convention or conventions that assume superiority or correctness based on the convention. In short it does not make something right just because everyone is doing it or that it is popular. Conventions (this is the way we do it) are often flawed because the group decides what is acceptable and rejects any ideas or notions outside those boundaries.

We in this group do this or that so therefore it is ok, anything else is not.

I feel and believe we are all part of one great universal conference and do have the freedom to express how we feel about things as well as merely stating cold facts (that are sometimes not applicable anyway). I see a public forum as a meeting place where we exchange ideas and information with each other and that can includes our inner most feelings, if we choose to share them.

Along the way, in our interaction with other people sometimes we form friendships and if our relationships with other people in a public setting or otherwise we find is not conducive to positive expressions, well we learn from them too.

Sorry, if I am making this too long. I just want to be understood and hoping you can understand this from my perspective.

Still open to viewpoints other than my own.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
I can not see how writing facts with feelings attached is hurting someone.
The only person it is hurting is you. Perhaps you still need to learn that people in general are not interested in your "personal" point of view if they do not know you and do not have a personal relationship with you. You are doing yourself much more harm than anybody else.

Bluedoll wrote:
An apple that falls out of a tree hits the ground due to gravity and this event makes me quiver with excitement to witness the wonders of the universe.

And say someone under me writes this.

Hay blue head you have apples in the brain, you don’t even understand the forces involved. What are you talking about? Leave your personal feelings out of it!
I would find this reply funny. But I would also think I deserved it, as unless the thread was about how you were supposed to react to the "wonder" of the apple hitting the ground, who's interested in your feelings? In fact you only managed to detract from the factual content in your statement.

Bluedoll wrote:
What I meant by “following a convention that is obviously flawed” is really directed to any convention or conventions that assume superiority or correctness based on the convention. In short it does not make something right just because everyone is doing it or that it is popular. Conventions (this is the way we do it) are often flawed because the group decides what is acceptable and rejects any ideas or notions outside those boundaries.

We in this group do this or that so therefore it is ok, anything else is not.
This is your own personal interpretation. I am not aware of a convention like that. The closest to the existence of such a "rule" is that if you take a position on a subject that you back it up with evidence. And to stick to the facts.

Bluedoll wrote:
I feel and believe we are all part of one great universal conference and do have the freedom to express how we feel about things as well as merely stating cold facts (that are sometimes not applicable anyway). I see a public forum as a meeting place where we exchange ideas and information with each other and that can includes our inner most feelings, if we choose to share them.
That's great, but don't be surprised if you end up on a lonely Universe, especially when people have no interest in your feelings. Perhaps there will be more magic in your feelings if you kept them to yourself, or reserve them for people who you are in close relationships with, otherwise it is detracting from what you want to say, to your own detriment.
flyfamilyguy
Bluedoll wrote:

Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal.
If I were to write for example, “I love people. I love writing and good debates. I love God. I love sexual exploration. I love being able to express myself. I love all these things together.”

Depending on the kind of response recieved, I might never want to write again.
Or not?

Appreciate your comments.

We are 'Two peas in a pod' my friend. Only what if my statement read; " I hate people, I hate writing and bad debates, I hate God, I hate sexual exploration, I hate being able to express myself, I hate all things together."

If I were to express myself in this way, I would be banned from this forum. YOU would not because YOU are using the term 'Love'. Pretty STUPID to say the least!

Freedom of speech and Expression is not something that some politician made up once upon a time. It's something that is built into us, and came to be because of this. It's also the Main ingredient for War between cultures, and being banned from Frihost.

Disclaimer
I feel compelled to express my gratitude to the frihost staff for two reasons; one being that they have freely provided a place for me to Express myself. Two being that I am SCARED of being banned for Expressing myself!
Bluedoll
My Writing . . . by Bluedoll

Let me make something very clear and I hope it shines some light on some poor soul! This is my post! It belongs to me, not Frihost. It belongs to me because I started it (created it) and using it for my forum.

I am presuming that Frihost wants to encourage the members to take interest enough in the forums to make it their own not the other way around. The part that Frihost owns is the right to use the board and the right to ban members from it if they want. They do not own ‘a person’ nor exist merely to dictate what a person is to write or not. Duh! that person can always go somewhere else and post their information anyway.

What Frihost does is to make some guidelines (rules) for members to follow and if I am breaking one, would certainly appreciate someone bringing it to my attention.

Forum is another way of saying, courtyard, enclosure, any printed matter for display. Yes, I agree that management can elect to ban anyone they choose but it is usually for printing harmful material and that is a good thing. However they do not own a person’s ability to express. What I really want to express is that sorry but the truth is, I will not be ‘SCARED’ or be intimated by anyone for expressing.

I hate a double standard but love mostly everything else.

When I write, I express myself with factual statements and with my feelings on subjects in an appropriate manner. I will continue to do so.. Yes, I can agree that if someone is not interested in what the writer is expressing they can choose not to read it however a really big fact is and quote “a man with emotional detachment on every subject is lost in a part of the universe that is cold secluded and sad but fortunately the universe is a big place.”

I am free and happy.
Very Happy
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
... if someone is not interested in what the writer is expressing they can choose not to read it

Excellent advice .... Cool
Bluedoll
Here for good . . . by Bluedoll

Glad to see my advice column is being read. If anyone needs any advice or help please don’t hesitate to ask.

Posting is something I like to do. I suppose when it comes right down to it posting is simply about people helping people. Although we will never agree on everything in our relationships, it is a good thought to know that we are able to express freely with each other without malice if we choose to do so.

Always, try to keep things in perspective when writing.

"We don’t have to think that the people who post will change the world, create a war, or even be then next new revolutionary scientist but a forum is a good place to express ideas, feeling, thoughts and generally communicate with human beings in a civilized way."
Cherbaby
Sometimes i really get nuts with all the stupid things people say around the web or even in real life! One topic was send away and no one answer to it! So then how can some members here talk about social debat if they cannot accept the evidences of experiences of life? I guess we can learn a lot about each others, with respect of course and thats why people write here and talk... If no one knows that is a kind of communication and relationship!

For some things of life my dear people there is not cientific explanation or logical understanding, just things happen as you learn with the way you make your life and the way you can express yourself. The way you express yourself no matter what, with write, thoughts, actions, etc you are establishing a bridge between you and others. Sometimes she can be broken! About freedom to express relationships, did gay men and lesbian women have that freedom to express their relationship? I guess here there is too much sociologistes and Psychologistes, but i bet no one have that course... For mos you can search about something you will never be able to say or prove something else, because you just search you don't study at all really! And there is a biggest and real diference between what is a search and a study, so don't come here and say you are prepared with this or that, because in the reality the most of opinions on here are made in comun sence and nothing more. Most of opinions are taken from life experiences. And that, that is what counts really, because its what we live and not what we have on the books. Books don't tell you the way you should live, you can learn about countrys, and others things, but never about how you should live or not! So i have to say this was not a good debat because the rest of the members didn't gave the chance to the lady Bluedoll express herself! She can be wrong in some things, as you all are too. No one is more smarter than anyone, just we have diferents abilities in some areas. About now if we have freedom of expression in our relationships, that is diferent from case to case, but if you all are so interest on that why not make a serious study with bibliography, and then chose a population for make questions and analyse the answers you all get. Maybe on that way, well maybe no, for sure on that way then you all will be someone else to say what others are saying are wrong or not!

take care!
Cherbaby
Sometimes i really get nuts with all the stupid things people say around the web or even in real life! One topic was send away and no one answer to it! So then how can some members here talk about social debat if they cannot accept the evidences of experiences of life? I guess we can learn a lot about each others, with respect of course and thats why people write here and talk... If no one knows that is a kind of communication and relationship!

For some things of life my dear people there is not cientific explanation or logical understanding, just things happen as you learn with the way you make your life and the way you can express yourself. The way you express yourself no matter what, with write, thoughts, actions, etc you are establishing a bridge between you and others. Sometimes she can be broken! About freedom to express relationships, did gay men and lesbian women have that freedom to express their relationship? I guess here there is too much sociologistes and Psychologistes, but i bet no one have that course... For mos you can search about something you will never be able to say or prove something else, because you just search you don't study at all really! And there is a biggest and real diference between what is a search and a study, so don't come here and say you are prepared with this or that, because in the reality the most of opinions on here are made in comun sence and nothing more. Most of opinions are taken from life experiences. And that, that is what counts really, because its what we live and not what we have on the books. Books don't tell you the way you should live, you can learn about countrys, and others things, but never about how you should live or not! So i have to say this was not a good debat because the rest of the members didn't gave the chance to the lady Bluedoll express herself! She can be wrong in some things, as you all are too. No one is more smarter than anyone, just we have diferents abilities in some areas. About now if we have freedom of expression in our relationships, that is diferent from case to case, but if you all are so interest on that why not make a serious study with bibliography, and then chose a population for make questions and analyse the answers you all get. Maybe on that way, well maybe no, for sure on that way then you all will be someone else to say what others are saying are wrong or not!

take care!
adamprisa
Every day in 365 days of the year is termed with some name. Father's Day, Mother's Day, Children's Day, Valentine's Day, AIDS day, Cancer day, No Tobacco day, No Alcohol day (Dry Day!)... and this list goes on. As far as celebration of these days are concerned it is all personal and no one else has any business if it is not effecting them in anyway.
lagoon
It is the business of big business.
vkykhan33
deanhills wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Have found that real people who write online can be crudely bashed for writing.

Every thing we write seems to be controversial. I understand that part but why do some people insist on making points with discourteous assaults? Is it done so that anyone with a different viewpoint will submit to their way of thinking without question?

It happens all over the internet.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=872236#872236

Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal.
If I were to write for example, “I love people. I love writing and good debates. I love God. I love sexual exploration. I love being able to express myself. I love all these things together.”

Depending on the kind of response recieved, I might never want to write again.
Or not?

Appreciate your comments.


Big thing is not take this personally. As it does not have anything to do with you as a person, but the actual debate itself. This could be a good practice for you to stand up for your point of view, and to debate it, with focus on your point of view, rather than your reaction to confrontational debate. The two people who you thought were abusive towards you, were actually not focussed on you, but on your points of view. Their theory is that you have a right to any theory and they respect that right. But they do not have to agree with your theory, nor respect your views, unless you can back those up with scientific evidence.

It would be a shame if you never wrote again as you may be passing up an opportunity to deal constructively and positively with confrontation, as this "abuse", which is not really abuse, may come your way again. I suggest that you go back to your point of view, and do your research, and when you enter into debate make sure that you are well prepared and can back up what you say with meaningful evidence. Also remember that these guys are very experienced in debate, and that experience did not come overnight. They have been around the proverbial discussion block a number of times so are seasoned debaters. They also had to go through what you are going through now, and they also had to learn not to take the debate personally. It is not about you as a person, as definitely they respect you as a person, but it is always about your argument. If you can remember that, including to only focus on their arguments rather than their style of debate, then it may be easier to deal with confrontational debate. Smile


I suggest that you go back to your point of view, and do your research, and when you enter into debate make sure that you are well prepared and can back up what you say with meaningful evidence. Also remember that these guys are very experienced in debate, and that experience did not come overnight. They have been around the proverbial discussion block a number of times so are seasoned debaters. They also had to go through what you are going through now, and they also had to learn not to take the debate personally. It is not about you as a person, as definitely they respect you as a person, but it is always about your argument.
deanhills
vkykhan33 wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Have found that real people who write online can be crudely bashed for writing.

Every thing we write seems to be controversial. I understand that part but why do some people insist on making points with discourteous assaults? Is it done so that anyone with a different viewpoint will submit to their way of thinking without question?

It happens all over the internet.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=872236#872236

Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal.
If I were to write for example, “I love people. I love writing and good debates. I love God. I love sexual exploration. I love being able to express myself. I love all these things together.”

Depending on the kind of response recieved, I might never want to write again.
Or not?

Appreciate your comments.


Big thing is not take this personally. As it does not have anything to do with you as a person, but the actual debate itself. This could be a good practice for you to stand up for your point of view, and to debate it, with focus on your point of view, rather than your reaction to confrontational debate. The two people who you thought were abusive towards you, were actually not focussed on you, but on your points of view. Their theory is that you have a right to any theory and they respect that right. But they do not have to agree with your theory, nor respect your views, unless you can back those up with scientific evidence.

It would be a shame if you never wrote again as you may be passing up an opportunity to deal constructively and positively with confrontation, as this "abuse", which is not really abuse, may come your way again. I suggest that you go back to your point of view, and do your research, and when you enter into debate make sure that you are well prepared and can back up what you say with meaningful evidence. Also remember that these guys are very experienced in debate, and that experience did not come overnight. They have been around the proverbial discussion block a number of times so are seasoned debaters. They also had to go through what you are going through now, and they also had to learn not to take the debate personally. It is not about you as a person, as definitely they respect you as a person, but it is always about your argument. If you can remember that, including to only focus on their arguments rather than their style of debate, then it may be easier to deal with confrontational debate. Smile


I suggest that you go back to your point of view, and do your research, and when you enter into debate make sure that you are well prepared and can back up what you say with meaningful evidence. Also remember that these guys are very experienced in debate, and that experience did not come overnight. They have been around the proverbial discussion block a number of times so are seasoned debaters. They also had to go through what you are going through now, and they also had to learn not to take the debate personally. It is not about you as a person, as definitely they respect you as a person, but it is always about your argument.
Not sure what you have been trying to do with the quote of my posting. The paragraph that has the appearance of being posted by you is actually the last paragraph of my posting that you quoted. Can you please delete the paragraph that has the appearance of a posting by you? Sad
Greatking
i believe in freedom of expression. being able to speak your mind. saying what you feel and think. i was raised to think and speak freely without fear. boldness in speaking my mind. i enjoy speaking my mind. its easy you know me right from day one no lies no pretense. i dont have to plan and work hard for you to like me. you will like me all by yourself. i feel good, i am free. i really dont care if some people dont like me because i speak my mind. because some people still like me for that reason. its funny but its true. you get to know a person really easy, there are no fake masks, its all real. but one big mistake we tend to make some times is when we think being free means infringing on peoples freedom as well. you can be free but that does not mean you have the right to make some one else uncomfortable. there is this expression that totally explains what i think: your freedom ends where your nose starts. so you see its not only about expressing yourself freely but ensuring you dont step on peoples toes. its simple and great if you just feel free within the right perimeters.
Bluedoll
Thank you for your insight Great King.
Very Happy

It is true the more honest and open we are, the better we are able to express ourselves.

My question in this post was in regard to relationships concerning how people react to each others dialog. It could be in conversation but in this case online writing and with someone we know well or with a stranger.

To be more specific, let’s say I did not agree with the philosophy of “your freedom ends where your nose starts”

Example # 1 acceptable
I could say something like, Yes, Great King I appreciate your response and respect your opinion however I do think we should be able to express anything we think or feel to someone else without having to worry about stepping on someone’s toes. As long as we are respectful of others do we not have the right to express ourselves freely and openly?

That to me is ok.

What would be not ok would be a response like this.

Example#2 not acceptable
Oh, Great Stupid Head, like what does that mean? Why do people post here anyway, Maybe some need a life. If someone posts this again, because I answered this before in another post, I am to give them a black eye (and quote too). Who cares what you post anyway?

I think the last example is somewhat of an exaggeration but my only point in showing the two examples is that in our relationships and that could mean simply a board chum we can communicate with respect or choose not to. Perhaps it is a little extreme, I am not sure but is it reasonable to say, if we receive garbage we sometimes give garbage back?

Our freedom of expression is affected because we have lost our right to be ‘personal’!

Unless of course our way of being personal is __________?

That was my original question.
Cool
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Thank you for your insight Great King.
Very Happy

It is true the more honest and open we are, the better we are able to express ourselves.

My question in this post was in regard to relationships concerning how people react to each others dialog. It could be in conversation but in this case online writing and with someone we know well or with a stranger.

To be more specific, let’s say I did not agree with the philosophy of “your freedom ends where your nose starts”

Example # 1 acceptable
I could say something like, Yes, Great King I appreciate your response and respect your opinion however I do think we should be able to express anything we think or feel to someone else without having to worry about stepping on someone’s toes. As long as we are respectful of others do we not have the right to express ourselves freely and openly?

That to me is ok.

What would be not ok would be a response like this.

Example#2 not acceptable
Oh, Great Stupid Head, like what does that mean? Why do people post here anyway, Maybe some need a life. If someone posts this again, because I answered this before in another post, I am to give them a black eye (and quote too). Who cares what you post anyway?

I think the last example is somewhat of an exaggeration but my only point in showing the two examples is that in our relationships and that could mean simply a board chum we can communicate with respect or choose not to. Perhaps it is a little extreme, I am not sure but is it reasonable to say, if we receive garbage we sometimes give garbage back?

Our freedom of expression is affected because we have lost our right to be ‘personal’!

Unless of course our way of being personal is __________?

That was my original question.
Cool
I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect. They are entirely different things. Both examples indicate freedom of expression. The second example however shows lack of respect.

True freedom of expression would allow people to have the freedom to say anything they like. So if one person feels entitled to say what they wish to say, then he/she should be happy for others to do exactly the same, their way. Others may express themselves differently and not always to the satisfaction of him/her who has one way of expressing themselves. For example you may find people who express themselves with less consideration for respect or form and may make sarcastic comments along the lines of freedom of expression.
Bluedoll
Listen up!

You think deanhills, you think? Well you better think again! You are absolutely and entirely wrong about me. “I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect.” This post has nothing to do with my dissatisfaction and everything to do with expression!

When you state opinions and viewpoints, you are expressing what you think and sometimes feel about something. Yes, you are entitled to express your views however when you quote someone and then interpret their writing as to what you think or feel they are saying then you have crossed a very distinctive line. This is not how I feel at all. I am not dissatisfied.

THIS IS NOT! I repeat not about my dissatisfaction. This is about a question put forth to the community and available to anyone that wants to read it and reply. It is a question for the purpose of discussion and that is all.


Do we have freedom expression in our relationships?
Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal. (in this post this is the definition of freedom of expression)



Do you know what I am dissatisfied with? Reading posts that simply have circular arguments instead of helpful information but will I leave that for another post!

No, I am not dissatisfied at all but raising a question, listening and responding to any replies!

___________________________________________________________________________


And Listening,

Listening to replies with appreciation I might add!

Notice the tone above in ‘listen up’. How did you find the tone?

“I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect. They are entirely different things.”

In this post, the connection between people in regard to courtesy and respect enabling them to have some kind of productive and worthwhile communication is entirely the point. They are the same things.

Although I do appreciate your well thought out reply deanhills must disagree with your logic on that one particular point. Courtesy and respect have everything to do with freedom of expression (in relationships). Without these very important ingredients, communication (constructive I mean) stops. I see not a separation but a combination where everything we do is connected together in harmony. One thing does affect the other.

My point in question is that responses that are inconsiderate will stop free expression. I do agree with you that everyone is different and that his or her different way does vary from one person to another. That is why, I guess, some people are just not compatible.

Thank you again for your comments. I love writing and reading good postings. I really do because it is satisfying for me. It is satisfying because each time I do, I learn something new.

Very Happy
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Listen up!

You think deanhills, you think? Well you better think again! You are absolutely and entirely wrong about me. “I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect.” This post has nothing to do with my dissatisfaction and everything to do with expression!

When you state opinions and viewpoints, you are expressing what you think and sometimes feel about something. Yes, you are entitled to express your views however when you quote someone and then interpret their writing as to what you think or feel they are saying then you have crossed a very distinctive line. This is not how I feel at all. I am not dissatisfied.

THIS IS NOT! I repeat not about my dissatisfaction. This is about a question put forth to the community and available to anyone that wants to read it and reply. It is a question for the purpose of discussion and that is all.


Do we have freedom expression in our relationships?
Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal. (in this post this is the definition of freedom of expression)



Do you know what I am dissatisfied with? Reading posts that simply have circular arguments instead of helpful information but will I leave that for another post!

No, I am not dissatisfied at all but raising a question, listening and responding to any replies!

___________________________________________________________________________


And Listening,

Listening to replies with appreciation I might add!

Notice the tone above in ‘listen up’. How did you find the tone?

“I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect. They are entirely different things.”

In this post, the connection between people in regard to courtesy and respect enabling them to have some kind of productive and worthwhile communication is entirely the point. They are the same things.

Although I do appreciate your well thought out reply deanhills must disagree with your logic on that one particular point. Courtesy and respect have everything to do with freedom of expression (in relationships). Without these very important ingredients, communication (constructive I mean) stops. I see not a separation but a combination where everything we do is connected together in harmony. One thing does affect the other.

My point in question is that responses that are inconsiderate will stop free expression. I do agree with you that everyone is different and that his or her different way does vary from one person to another. That is why, I guess, some people are just not compatible.

Thank you again for your comments. I love writing and reading good postings. I really do because it is satisfying for me. It is satisfying because each time I do, I learn something new.

Very Happy
With respect. It would appear that you have one rule of self-expression for yourself and a different one for others. Not everyone expresses him or herself in the same way. I don't express myself in the same way that you do for example. Yet you made my posting very personal and about yourself, rather than giving me my space to express my thoughts freely. In effect, you are guilty of your own criticism about inconsiderate responses stopping free expression. Perhaps next time I will have to be careful how I express myself and may have to think twice about what I say? Different people have different ways of expressing themselves freely. What you may see as an inconsiderate response may not necessarily be so from the "freedom of expression" point of view of the person who is responsible for that response. By setting limits of exactly how that person should express him/herself freely to you, you are censoring their freedom of expression and are by implication guilty of what you are accusing them off.

That is why I argued above that your dissatisfaction had to be about discourtesy and lack of respect. It could not have been about freedom of expression as whereas you expressed yourself freely in that debate, you censored the freedom of expression of the person you were having the debate with.
tingkagol
deanhills wrote:
I don't understand why you are bringing this up? Some of the greatest debaters on Frihost are women. And they are seasoned debaters as well. I do not understand what you mean by "following a convention that is obviously flawed?" What convention is it and why is it flawed?

Wait... who are these "women"?

I've always assumed there were only guys in the philosophy forums. hehe. How sexist of me.
Bluedoll
deanhills wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Listen up!

You think deanhills, you think? Well you better think again! You are absolutely and entirely wrong about me. “I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect.” This post has nothing to do with my dissatisfaction and everything to do with expression!

When you state opinions and viewpoints, you are expressing what you think and sometimes feel about something. Yes, you are entitled to express your views however when you quote someone and then interpret their writing as to what you think or feel they are saying then you have crossed a very distinctive line. This is not how I feel at all. I am not dissatisfied.

THIS IS NOT! I repeat not about my dissatisfaction. This is about a question put forth to the community and available to anyone that wants to read it and reply. It is a question for the purpose of discussion and that is all.


Do we have freedom expression in our relationships?
Freedom of expression means we can write something without abusive reprisal. (in this post this is the definition of freedom of expression)



Do you know what I am dissatisfied with? Reading posts that simply have circular arguments instead of helpful information but will I leave that for another post!

No, I am not dissatisfied at all but raising a question, listening and responding to any replies!

___________________________________________________________________________


And Listening,

Listening to replies with appreciation I might add!

Notice the tone above in ‘listen up’. How did you find the tone?

“I don't think Bluedoll's dissatisfaction is about freedom of expression but about courtesy and respect. They are entirely different things.”

In this post, the connection between people in regard to courtesy and respect enabling them to have some kind of productive and worthwhile communication is entirely the point. They are the same things.

Although I do appreciate your well thought out reply deanhills must disagree with your logic on that one particular point. Courtesy and respect have everything to do with freedom of expression (in relationships). Without these very important ingredients, communication (constructive I mean) stops. I see not a separation but a combination where everything we do is connected together in harmony. One thing does affect the other.

My point in question is that responses that are inconsiderate will stop free expression. I do agree with you that everyone is different and that his or her different way does vary from one person to another. That is why, I guess, some people are just not compatible.

Thank you again for your comments. I love writing and reading good postings. I really do because it is satisfying for me. It is satisfying because each time I do, I learn something new.

Very Happy
With respect. It would appear that you have one rule of self-expression for yourself and a different one for others. Not everyone expresses him or herself in the same way. I don't express myself in the same way that you do for example. Yet you made my posting very personal and about yourself, rather than giving me my space to express my thoughts freely. In effect, you are guilty of your own criticism about inconsiderate responses stopping free expression. Perhaps next time I will have to be careful how I express myself and may have to think twice about what I say? Different people have different ways of expressing themselves freely. What you may see as an inconsiderate response may not necessarily be so from the "freedom of expression" point of view of the person who is responsible for that response. By setting limits of exactly how that person should express him/herself freely to you, you are censoring their freedom of expression and are by implication guilty of what you are accusing them off.

That is why I argued above that your dissatisfaction had to be about discourtesy and lack of respect. It could not have been about freedom of expression as whereas you expressed yourself freely in that debate, you censored the freedom of expression of the person you were having the debate with.



Also with respect.

I do read some of your posts and they are quite good. I actually admire your well thought out ideas and your writing skill. On the other hand a lot of what you write is as you wrote, to argue. You might think about that for just a little while. I find sometimes in these debates there is a lot of circular logic. If this is so, then that much be so and if that is so then isn’t the first thing so? Rather an obscure way of making points (or winning arguments)?

Yes it is true, I did in my last post, question my own response with a reservation of being hypocritical. That can happen so easily. With that point, I agree with you. I tried to write with an example to ‘show’ and not just explain what I feel is the contrast between a good way to publish and a plain old argument (a lot less constructive). We walk a fine line sometimes and I can be just as guilty as anyone else.

Still, I am feeling obligated to put into question what your comments in regards to what I write, so must continue, deanhills. (you quote me)

How can I censure anyone? I am not a moderator. The style of writing we choose is different and I choose personal. This style, I will maintain in my posts even if you choose a style which is impersonal.

I think quoting someone is more personal than not, especially if we interpret what the other is saying. Is it not?

In the end, yes we both write from different perspectives. I believe (unless I am wrong) that you see a forum from the perspective of a debater and the activity should be carried on with detachment while I see a forum (not necessarily here but anywhere) more as an open discussion by people with real personal opinions and feelings.

I try not to make a post just about myself. I am including you, deanhills, into the post. Do you need to be careful how you express yourself? Absolutely not! Please express yourself openly and freely because I don’t interpret any of your communication to be offensive or abusive. I just disagree with some of your points, that’s all, as you also do with mine.

I am so satisfied with the results of this post that in time just might make another! Great stuff to get the old gears turning. Yes, it is so great to be able to freely exchange thoughts without discourtesy and lack of respect. I guess, we are able to do that because we do have freedom of expression in our online relationship, deanhills.




***********Blowing a kiss to deanhills********************
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
I believe (unless I am wrong) that you see a forum from the perspective of a debater and the activity should be carried on with detachment while I see a forum (not necessarily here but anywhere) more as an open discussion by people with real personal opinions and feelings.
Thanks for the detailed comment Bluedoll as well as the kind words. You're absolutely correct. I believe debate should be carried out with detachment, so much so that you cannot take anything personal. The focus should be on the facts of the debate and not the people who present the facts.
Bluedoll
Thank you God for my person . . . by Bluedoll

I certainly understand and agree to presenting facts in a debate however do not see every post as a factual debate especially under a topic called relationships. There are just too many variables, too many contradictions, too much of everything in human subjects to keep a cold detachment. Besides I believe that human emotion and personal presence is always part of the equation and therefore people are part of the subject. Human emotion, heart felt hunks and facts based on intuition are relevant, not always right but relevant.

Lets face it, if something like the stock market was simply based on mathematical computations we could close out the people and use computers to do the task. Not so! It is word of mouth, confidence or non confidence or just a feeling that drives the world economy. Not just facts! If a country at war with a desire to win concentrates solely on war toys, economies and mere facts then they might possibly not reach success. Concentrate on the spirit of the people and you will win or loose based on the morale of the people involved. Every good leader knows this.

Another good example is with jury’s. Is a decision reached on facts? Yes. But facts alone? If you were on trial with the facts stacked against you, would you want at least one person in a room of angry men to deliberate on your case based on a feeling? Can we solely depend on intuition? No. I am not saying that. But to just ignore what we have at our disposal is so completely wrong.

Online relationships whatever form they take in any season require at least two people willing to take things personally to make the deliberation lively (whether they realize it or not). Yes, presenting yourself and listening in a personal way is risk taking but always well worth the risk.

It is very surprising how people solutions can be found with very simple statements. “Can we disagree and still be friends?”

Without people having some kind of personal involvement (pointing to the information we write down) in a discussion (another word for debate) you might as well place two computers together for that purpose.

Those that use little respect or absolute detachment threaten a good discussion. The person doing the writing is of the utmost importance. How people feel and interpret facts is so very important. If we are to freely have a good discussion then we absolutely must include who the person is in our relationship, not just the facts.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Those that use little respect or absolute detachment threaten a good discussion. The person doing the writing is of the utmost importance. How people feel and interpret facts is so very important. If we are to freely have a good discussion then we absolutely must include who the person is in our relationship, not just the facts.
OK, let's start with definitions of (1) detachment and (2) absolute detachment? And (3) why "absolute detachment" and "little respect" would be used in the same sentence as "treatening a good discussion"?

Regarding the inclusion of the people we are debating with. If we debate in a forum about relationships, then we should keep to the topic of the thread, such as this one, which asks whether we have freedom of expression in our relationships. The focus is on the topic, not on individual selves as the forum is what counts, rather than its individual parts. I believe that the personal part - ourselves - is better served by a personal blog. This would be the ideal place to open up personal feelings and opinions and give free reign to personal opinions that people can comment on. Quite a number of people have personal blogs, and that is probably also a place where you have the right to complete freedom of expression and can decide which comments you can reject, by simply deleting them from your blog.
Bluedoll
You always have interesting comments, deanhills. Thank you. You stated your opinion on how you wish to use a forum as a place to debate and how to use a blog. I agree that blogs have a purpose but not sure what you meant by free reign and the right to complete freedom of expression?



Really I am sorry if I come across as being oversensitive, I don’t want to appear to be that way but it sounds to me when I read your post (could be wrong here) you are doing more than debating but actually dictating what you believe, what “I should do” and not what you like to do. Am I wrong in making this assumption?

I believe, we can express any place providing that we live under the rules of the public places and use common sense. I enjoy expressing freely my ideas and my feelings in public forum. It is our choice, and I also think a forum does serve us well because it demonstrates how a person really can express themself without having the control to edit others.


My focus on the topic encompasses people. Those people are you, me and anyone else who wants to contribute. Deanhills, our personal self is what the topic is sometimes. I do understand you. If we were talking about bumble bees and someone changed the topic to something personal it can be very distracting and not relevant but in this particular topic, I really do think the two are the same.


You wrote,

OK, let's start with definitions of (1) detachment and (2) absolute detachment? And (3) why "absolute detachment" and "little respect" would be used in the same sentence as "threatening a good discussion"?

I think your question was, “what do I mean?” Hope so, unless you were trying to explain something? I will treat it as a question, ok.

What I meant was that some things can ruin a discussion. It is all about how we express ourselves with others. We obviously can not communicate effectively (communication is always a two way street) if the person we are trying to communicate with, demonstrates very little respect (that could be both for the topic and the author) and/or is simply not receptive to the topic. It is not like a rule, it is rather an understanding. Intimidation is another. I am sure there are several more.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Really I am sorry if I come across as being oversensitive, I don’t want to appear to be that way but it sounds to me when I read your post (could be wrong here) you are doing more than debating but actually dictating what you believe, what “I should do” and not what you like to do. Am I wrong in making this assumption?

I believe, we can express any place providing that we live under the rules of the public places and use common sense. I enjoy expressing freely my ideas and my feelings in public forum. It is our choice, and I also think a forum does serve us well because it demonstrates how a person really can express themself without having the control to edit others.

If this is how you interpret my point of view then by implication you have to be guilty too? Dictating your version of freedom of expression?

Bluedoll wrote:
You wrote,

OK, let's start with definitions of (1) detachment and (2) absolute detachment? And (3) why "absolute detachment" and "little respect" would be used in the same sentence as "threatening a good discussion"? I think your question was, “what do I mean?” Hope so, unless you were trying to explain something? I will treat it as a question, ok.
No, I was actually interested in how you interpreted detachment? My impression was that you were looking at it negatively as you had used it in the same sentence as "threatening a good discussion". As though detachment is negative.

Bluedoll wrote:
What I meant was that some things can ruin a discussion. It is all about how we express ourselves with others. We obviously can not communicate effectively (communication is always a two way street) if the person we are trying to communicate with, demonstrates very little respect (that could be both for the topic and the author) and/or is simply not receptive to the topic. It is not like a rule, it is rather an understanding. Intimidation is another. I am sure there are several more.
I agree with you here. Lack of respect and being unresponsive especially in a forum would be wrong.
Bluedoll
The more I am reading your posts, the better I am getting to understand and know you.

You asked me how I interpret detachment. A detachment in our relationship deanhills is not necessarily negative but rather a menace to good communication?

I just meant detachment is a failure to relate to another point of view. You can always disagree or express a different perspective but understanding the other person is the key to a good relationship.

Sometimes detachment can be a good thing and different styles not only are effective but gives variety. Although there are different acceptable styles, I don’t believe there are different versions in regards to expressing ourselves freely. You either are able to discuss with each other or not.

Have you ever heard someone say, “I can not talk to that man” even though they had just been conversing?
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
You either are able to discuss with each other or not.
That is quite true. I have often found that people are more interested in their own point of view, than truly listening to the other person's point of view, so if their points of view are very different, I would imagine that in such a situation they would not be able to have a discussion at all. There is definitely an art in listening to the other person, and the more detached a person is, the easier it is to "listen" to the other point of view. The more "involved" with the other person, the less objective can the listening be. By involvement it could be either positive or negative. The person who listens can for example be completely in awe of the other person to the point of thinking that that person cannot say anything wrong, and if they had a different point of view, then the person who listens has to be wrong. Or the person who listens can come to a negative point of perception about the person they are communicating with, perhaps the person "looks dumb" to them for any given "dumb" reason, and they presume that whatever they have to say would be "dumb".
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