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BJP doesn’t give a damn for the Lord Ram temple





atul2242
I just read this article -
Is this true?
What are your feelings on the issue?
Do you think that political parties are messing aroung with our beliefs and faiths?


http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne070309incoldblood.asp

Quote:
‘Thanks To BJP, Ram Lalla Stands Like A Beggar’

Ramjanambhoomi head priest Satyendra Das tells AJIT SAHI that the BJP doesn’t give a damn for Lord Ram or the temple

LK Advani has said the BJP hasn’t given up on the Ram temple issue and is committed to building it.
He is lying. The BJP has used the Ram temple issue only for political gains. They don’t give a damn for Lord Ram or the temple. As long as the BJP and the VHP are attached with this issue, it will never be sorted.
deanhills
I read it very briefly, I read conflict between Muslims and Hindus in between all the lines, a priest that thinks he can fix this whereas politicians can't, and a temple that is probably going to be raised to the ground. Looks as though the monkey could fool the people for only that long Wink

Think Vineeth explained in another thread that there are so many uneducated people in India who are ripe for persuasion in any direction, so probably easy to be swayed by oratory of politicians. Solution seems to lie in education. In the meanwhile it all sounds very chaotic and potentially explosive. Politicians will no doubt exploit it in the direction that is beneficial for them.
vineeth
Ram Janmabhumi (Birthplace of Lord Ram) issue an interesting one, even though it took lives of numerous Hindus and Muslims on one side and helped many politicians to win "sentimental"votes on the other.

The conflict is this...

Ayodhya is historically believed to be the birth place of Lord Ram, an incarnation of a Hindu god, Vishnu. As Ram is regarded for his extra ordinary adherence towards the path of truth, he is one of the most respected personal god in India, especially in northern India. It is custom in India to build temples for such personalities so that people can benefit from their philosophies even after their physical death. So it is self-evident that a temple might have been there where Ram was born.

During the invasion of Muslims to India, they caused a lot of damage and this particularly included temples and other religious establishments. Babar, a Muslim king, is believed to construct a Mosque where original temple of Ram was situated even though it is not clear that whether Babar himself destructed the temple. Thus formed the Babari Musjid.

A few years back, some politically motivated, and of course not religiously or spiritually motivated, Hindu leaders conducted a public gathering near Ayodhya and this ended up in the partial demolition of Babari Musjid. India witnessed a lot of bloodshed over the issue.

From then onwards, Ram Temple issue, now the issue is popularly know as this, is a favorite election gimmick for all Indian political parties. BJP, which is believed to be of Hindu ideologies, would argue for construction of a Ram Temple where the original temple was situated. They believes that this would attract more Hindu votes. Congress and others would keep silence over the real issue and would state that BJP is trying to play "Hindu card" over the issue during election game. They also believes that with this stand, they could attract more Muslim votes, attract votes of moderate Hindus and pretend like protecting the larger interests of the country.

I am in fact fed up watching all these stupidity.

Hinduism is not like any other religion in the world. It is not just a religion but is also a science, moral code, philosophy and much more. It is not depending on any 'incarnations' of god and Ram is just another name, for an educated Hindu and he would never try to kill others when you said something against Ram. He is always vigilant to continue his spiritual practices undisturbed and try to see divinity in everything. Yes, in those who are worshiping in temples and those who always tries to demolish temples. It is a wrong concept that temples are the critical components of Hinduism. In fact, they came much later in Indian society, somewhere around AD 100 (to be verified).

Live everywhere in the world, India also has a lot of crooked politicians who will use each and every situation for their personal benefits. This happened in the Ram Temple issue also. Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church. But for some people concerned, solving this issue means losing a good opportunity for ever which has a lot of future prospectus.

On the website of Atma Jyoti Ashram, which is a conventional Hindu monastery in US, there is a debatable but a ground reality statement...

"Nothing is more miserable than a monk without a genuine interior life–India is filled with them."

So the situation is not up to the mark, where the blinds are being lead by the blinds....
deanhills
vineeth wrote:
Ram Janmabhumi (Birthplace of Lord Ram) issue an interesting one, even though it took lives of numerous Hindus and Muslims on one side and helped many politicians to win "sentimental"votes on the other.

The conflict is this...

Ayodhya is historically believed to be the birth place of Lord Ram, an incarnation of a Hindu god, Vishnu. As Ram is regarded for his extra ordinary adherence towards the path of truth, he is one of the most respected personal god in India, especially in northern India. It is custom in India to build temples for such personalities so that people can benefit from their philosophies even after their physical death. So it is self-evident that a temple might have been there where Ram was born.

During the invasion of Muslims to India, they caused a lot of damage and this particularly included temples and other religious establishments. Babar, a Muslim king, is believed to construct a Mosque where original temple of Ram was situated even though it is not clear that whether Babar himself destructed the temple. Thus formed the Babari Musjid.

A few years back, some politically motivated, and of course not religiously or spiritually motivated, Hindu leaders conducted a public gathering near Ayodhya and this ended up in the partial demolition of Babari Musjid. India witnessed a lot of bloodshed over the issue.

From then onwards, Ram Temple issue, now the issue is popularly know as this, is a favorite election gimmick for all Indian political parties. BJP, which is believed to be of Hindu ideologies, would argue for construction of a Ram Temple where the original temple was situated. They believes that this would attract more Hindu votes. Congress and others would keep silence over the real issue and would state that BJP is trying to play "Hindu card" over the issue during election game. They also believes that with this stand, they could attract more Muslim votes, attract votes of moderate Hindus and pretend like protecting the larger interests of the country.

I am in fact fed up watching all these stupidity.

Hinduism is not like any other religion in the world. It is not just a religion but is also a science, moral code, philosophy and much more. It is not depending on any 'incarnations' of god and Ram is just another name, for an educated Hindu and he would never try to kill others when you said something against Ram. He is always vigilant to continue his spiritual practices undisturbed and try to see divinity in everything. Yes, in those who are worshiping in temples and those who always tries to demolish temples. It is a wrong concept that temples are the critical components of Hinduism. In fact, they came much later in Indian society, somewhere around AD 100 (to be verified).

Live everywhere in the world, India also has a lot of crooked politicians who will use each and every situation for their personal benefits. This happened in the Ram Temple issue also. Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church. But for some people concerned, solving this issue means losing a good opportunity for ever which has a lot of future prospectus.

On the website of Atma Jyoti Ashram, which is a conventional Hindu monastery in US, there is a debatable but a ground reality statement...

"Nothing is more miserable than a monk without a genuine interior life–India is filled with them."

So the situation is not up to the mark, where the blinds are being lead by the blinds....


Thanks for explaining this to us Vineeth. I am really sorry about the pain it must be causing for your and many people who have a great reverence for Ram and the complete senseless conflict of it all. I actually had forgotten about the history surrounding Ram and the temple. I remember very well now the bloodshed that happened because of the Mosque that had been built on the same site. That is so sad, and as you pointed out richly exploited by politicians.
atul2242
Thanks Vineeth!
I did read somewhere that it is not historically proven that Ram had a temple at the exact site or not.
But my dilemma is not wether there was a temple or not. Most religious structures come up in places where older ones exist. An example would/could be how many Buddhist monastries came up on even more ancient vedic ritual sites and then they were destroyed to make temples for modern hindu gods.
A lot depended on the political powers change or because of the emergence of a strong religious leader.

The Q is how aware are people of the games played by political parties?
hunnyhiteshseth
vineeth wrote:

During the invasion of Muslims to India, they caused a lot of damage and this particularly included temples and other religious establishments. Babar, a Muslim king, is believed to construct a Mosque where original temple of Ram was situated even though it is not clear that whether Babar himself destructed the temple. Thus formed the Babari Musjid.


This is like Israel-Palestine war, both sides say "we came first!!" Laughing

Quote:

He is always vigilant to continue his spiritual practices undisturbed and try to see divinity in everything.


Thats certainly true. A Hindu would find spirituality in most stupidiest of things. No wonder, there are zillion superstitions among them.
This reminds me of an old movie "The god must be crazy" in which a man throws a coke bottle from plane above and a bushman thinks it was sent by god! A similar kind of beleive is found here, where anything & everything gets attributed to god.

Quote:

Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church.


Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the wa, muslims have mosque and not church!
hunnyhiteshseth
vineeth wrote:

During the invasion of Muslims to India, they caused a lot of damage and this particularly included temples and other religious establishments. Babar, a Muslim king, is believed to construct a Mosque where original temple of Ram was situated even though it is not clear that whether Babar himself destructed the temple. Thus formed the Babari Musjid.


This is like Israel-Palestine war, both sides say "we came first!!" Laughing

Quote:

He is always vigilant to continue his spiritual practices undisturbed and try to see divinity in everything.


Thats certainly true. A Hindu would find spirituality in most stupidiest of things. No wonder, there are zillion superstitions among them.
This reminds me of an old movie "The god must be crazy" in which a man throws a coke bottle from plane above and a bushman thinks it was sent by god! A similar kind of beleive is found here, where anything & everything gets attributed to god.

Quote:

Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church.


Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the way, muslims have mosque and not church!
handfleisch
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:


Thats certainly true. A Hindu would find spirituality in most stupidiest of things. No wonder, there are zillion superstitions among them.
This reminds me of an old movie "The god must be crazy" in which a man throws a coke bottle from plane above and a bushman thinks it was sent by god! A similar kind of beleive is found here, where anything & everything gets attributed to god.

Quote:

Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church.


Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the way, muslims have mosque and not church!


Why are you mocking these religious beliefs and the compromise solution of building both a mosque and a temple? It is not stupid to see divinity in everything and that solution sounds extremely peaceable and tolerant.
deanhills
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the way, muslims have mosque and not church!

How would you define "sensible people" Hunnyhiteshseth, and how many are there in India? What percentage of the total population in India would the "majority of sensible people" represent in your estimation? Smile
vineeth
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
vineeth wrote:

During the invasion of Muslims to India, they caused a lot of damage and this particularly included temples and other religious establishments. Babar, a Muslim king, is believed to construct a Mosque where original temple of Ram was situated even though it is not clear that whether Babar himself destructed the temple. Thus formed the Babari Musjid.


This is like Israel-Palestine war, both sides say "we came first!!" Laughing

Quote:

He is always vigilant to continue his spiritual practices undisturbed and try to see divinity in everything.


Thats certainly true. A Hindu would find spirituality in most stupidiest of things. No wonder, there are zillion superstitions among them.
This reminds me of an old movie "The god must be crazy" in which a man throws a coke bottle from plane above and a bushman thinks it was sent by god! A similar kind of beleive is found here, where anything & everything gets attributed to god.

Quote:

Majority of Hindus in India would support the idea of construction of two places of worship in Ayodhya, one Ram Temple and another Muslim church.


Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the wa, muslims have mosque and not church!


I wish every Hindu has that 'stupidity'...

This 'stupidity' is reserved not only for Hindus but for all people around the globe; for those who seek higher meanings in life, better and beyond any limitations... for all those crazy god lovers...

Yes, I am also a stupid in this sense... but my stupidity is not enough, I need to be more stupid for I don't love god enough to satisfy my earnest desire to do so.

I love all such stupids around the world too...
hunnyhiteshseth
deanhills wrote:
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
Yeah, but majority of "sensible people" would support the idea of construction of school or hospital in Ayodhya at that place.
By the way, muslims have mosque and not church!

How would you define "sensible people" Hunnyhiteshseth, and how many are there in India? What percentage of the total population in India would the "majority of sensible people" represent in your estimation? Smile


Man!! now you have learnt how to play with my words! Laughing
Well thats why I had put it in " ", to show that "sensible people" have no clear definition but can be assumed to be "A group of persons who think objectively & logically to arrive at a conclusion"

I wont go in numbers, but I think it would be sufficient to say that a mob doesn't always make correct decision. And in this context, Hindus are majority in India, but it doesn't mean that by popular vote a temple would/should be built there.

Quote:

I wish every Hindu has that 'stupidity'...

This 'stupidity' is reserved not only for Hindus but for all people around the globe; for those who seek higher meanings in life, better and beyond any limitations... for all those crazy god lovers...

Yes, I am also a stupid in this sense... but my stupidity is not enough, I need to be more stupid for I don't love god enough to satisfy my earnest desire to do so.

I love all such stupids around the world too...


Well,... after reading that i can safely say, as of now,only god can save this world!!
Cool Laughing Twisted Evil
deanhills
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
Man!! now you have learnt how to play with my words! Laughing
Well thats why I had put it in " ", to show that "sensible people" have no clear definition but can be assumed to be "A group of persons who think objectively & logically to arrive at a conclusion"

I wont go in numbers, but I think it would be sufficient to say that a mob doesn't always make correct decision. And in this context, Hindus are majority in India, but it doesn't mean that by popular vote a temple would/should be built there.

I was playing with your words Smile Agreed with "mob" not always making "sensible" decisions. It would be interesting to hold an election on the issue of building a temple, although I can imagine since it is so politically motivated, that it would not be in the interest of politicians to put it to the vote. So I would imagine Government and politicians would not count under the heading of "sensible people"? Smile
hunnyhiteshseth
deanhills wrote:
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
Man!! now you have learnt how to play with my words! Laughing
Well thats why I had put it in " ", to show that "sensible people" have no clear definition but can be assumed to be "A group of persons who think objectively & logically to arrive at a conclusion"

I wont go in numbers, but I think it would be sufficient to say that a mob doesn't always make correct decision. And in this context, Hindus are majority in India, but it doesn't mean that by popular vote a temple would/should be built there.

I was playing with your words Smile Agreed with "mob" not always making "sensible" decisions. It would be interesting to hold an election on the issue of building a temple, although I can imagine since it is so politically motivated, that it would not be in the interest of politicians to put it to the vote. So I would imagine Government and politicians would not count under the heading of "sensible people"? Smile


Yes, because they won't think objectively. But I won't paint all of them with same brush and a 'sensible politician' isn't always a misnormer!! Laughing

An election on sole issue of temple would be a flop show. When you haven't eaten for two days, the last thing you care about is ram temple. Similarly, when you yourself don't have a house, you won't think about a home for Ram. And ofcourse, when you are well off, who needs a god anyway?
(if you haven't noticed, I have tried to capture reactions of every class of people)


And about majority & sensible people thing, think why US has an electoral college instead of direct voting?
deanhills
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
(if you haven't noticed, I have tried to capture reactions of every class of people)
I have noticed it ... think they call it playing devil's advocate ... I like it ... Smile
atul2242
deanhills wrote:


An election on sole issue of temple would be a flop show. When you haven't eaten for two days, the last thing you care about is ram temple. Similarly, when you yourself don't have a house, you won't think about a home for Ram. And ofcourse, when you are well off, who needs a god anyway?
(if you haven't noticed, I have tried to capture reactions of every class of people)



It would be a flop show because of other reasons. People may be poor in India but the majority do get food and Ayodhya is in the fertile plains, people are not starving in the region.
It would be a flop because it would expose the faults of many powerful people including religious loud-mouths.
Besides the issue will die once this happens and this is not in many people's interests.
atul2242
deanhills wrote:


And about majority & sensible people thing, think why US has an electoral college instead of direct voting?


Has it made any difference....
hunnyhiteshseth
atul2242 wrote:
deanhills wrote:


An election on sole issue of temple would be a flop show. When you haven't eaten for two days, the last thing you care about is ram temple. Similarly, when you yourself don't have a house, you won't think about a home for Ram. And ofcourse, when you are well off, who needs a god anyway?
(if you haven't noticed, I have tried to capture reactions of every class of people)



It would be a flop show because of other reasons. People may be poor in India but the majority do get food and Ayodhya is in the fertile plains, people are not starving in the region.
It would be a flop because it would expose the faults of many powerful people including religious loud-mouths.
Besides the issue will die once this happens and this is not in many people's interests.


Hey!! That was my quote!! It tells with how much attention you read this forum and no wonder you have misunderstood my post.
I never said majority cant afford food. Infact, i tried to capture reaction of all sections of society(as i mentioned & as deanhills noticed!)
And being flop show means that no body would vote according to this issue and not that this issue would disappear.
vineeth
Today, I was traveling with my friend who is an official of the Communist Party of India in our area. Other than this, he is also a post graduate in international relations and works for tourism industry.

The topic of discussion on the way was "How we can differentiate those with brains and without brains in the messed up world conditions?".

He took no time in replying me... "For those with brains, look at the politicians and for those without, look at general public".

This is the situation !
deanhills
vineeth wrote:
Today, I was traveling with my friend who is an official of the Communist Party of India in our area. Other than this, he is also a post graduate in international relations and works for tourism industry.

The topic of discussion on the way was "How we can differentiate those with brains and without brains in the messed up world conditions?".

He took no time in replying me... "For those with brains, look at the politicians and for those without, look at general public".

This is the situation !

Difficult for me to picture a Communist Party in India. Am curious to learn more about this.

Not impressed with what he said however, sounded a little less than "brainy" to me. Is it possibly because he does not like politicians much, OR that he is a politician himself? Smile
vineeth
deanhills wrote:
vineeth wrote:
Today, I was traveling with my friend who is an official of the Communist Party of India in our area. Other than this, he is also a post graduate in international relations and works for tourism industry.

The topic of discussion on the way was "How we can differentiate those with brains and without brains in the messed up world conditions?".

He took no time in replying me... "For those with brains, look at the politicians and for those without, look at general public".

This is the situation !

Difficult for me to picture a Communist Party in India. Am curious to learn more about this.

Not impressed with what he said however, sounded a little less than "brainy" to me. Is it possibly because he does not like politicians much, OR that he is a politician himself? Smile


Smile No problem, the difficulty is because you are not used to the complex political situations of India. Politics has lost all ethics, values and trust but still it is a necessity like sex Wink . We need some body to make the government and manage the system and so we choose the best scrap available !

It is not a "brainy" but it features the thought process of many young people here... Even being a part time politician, he feels so. That's all.

Communist party is prominent in three Indian states named Kerala (I'm from here), West Bangal and Tripura. They usually talks against corruption, privatization of banks, insurance sector, Indo-US atomic deal and favors distribuition of power, empowerment of farmers and other working class etc... But in effect, it is the same old wine in a new bottle. Anyway, I will call them a ray of hope...
vineeth
deanhills wrote:
vineeth wrote:
Today, I was traveling with my friend who is an official of the Communist Party of India in our area. Other than this, he is also a post graduate in international relations and works for tourism industry.

The topic of discussion on the way was "How we can differentiate those with brains and without brains in the messed up world conditions?".

He took no time in replying me... "For those with brains, look at the politicians and for those without, look at general public".

This is the situation !

Difficult for me to picture a Communist Party in India. Am curious to learn more about this.

Not impressed with what he said however, sounded a little less than "brainy" to me. Is it possibly because he does not like politicians much, OR that he is a politician himself? Smile


Smile No problem, the difficulty is because you are not used to the complex political situations of India. Politics has lost all ethics, values and trust but still it is a necessity like sex Wink . We need somebody to make the government and manage the system and so we choose the best scrap available !

What he said is not a "brainy" but it features the thought process of many young people here... Even being a part time politician, he feels so. That's all.

Communist party is prominent in three Indian states named Kerala (I'm from here), West Bangal and Tripura. They usually talks against corruption, privatization of banks, insurance sector, Indo-US atomic deal and favors distribution of power, empowerment of farmers and other working class etc... But in effect, it is the same old wine in a new bottle.

Anyway, I will call them a ray of hope...
deanhills
vineeth wrote:
so we choose the best scrap available !
Think that is pretty much the situation in ALL of the world and the "best scrap available" obviously varies by degrees ... Smile

vineeth wrote:
Communist party is prominent in three Indian states named Kerala (I'm from here), West Bangal and Tripura. They usually talks against corruption, privatization of banks, insurance sector, Indo-US atomic deal and favors distribution of power, empowerment of farmers and other working class etc... But in effect, it is the same old wine in a new bottle.
Very interesting. It is possibly a difficult question to guage, but from the top of your head, what percentage of the total population do you think would support the Communist Party? You also mention that they are limited to three states, would there then be no communists at all in areas like Bangalore and New Delhi, are they only limited to the South of India?
vineeth
deanhills wrote:
vineeth wrote:
so we choose the best scrap available !
Think that is pretty much the situation in ALL of the world and the "best scrap available" obviously varies by degrees ... Smile

vineeth wrote:
Communist party is prominent in three Indian states named Kerala (I'm from here), West Bangal and Tripura. They usually talks against corruption, privatization of banks, insurance sector, Indo-US atomic deal and favors distribution of power, empowerment of farmers and other working class etc... But in effect, it is the same old wine in a new bottle.
Very interesting. It is possibly a difficult question to guage, but from the top of your head, what percentage of the total population do you think would support the Communist Party? You also mention that they are limited to three states, would there then be no communists at all in areas like Bangalore and New Delhi, are they only limited to the South of India?


Communist Party of India (CPI-M) is prominent in the states that I mentioned above. They are getting enough votes to lead the state Govt. in these states only. In other areas, they are a minority. In Bangalore and New Delhi, CPI-M is not a major political power. Those areas are driven by Congress and BJP. CPI-M is not limited to south India but with very limited influence in other states.
hunnyhiteshseth
vineeth wrote:
Communist Party of India (CPI-M) is prominent in the states that I mentioned above. They are getting enough votes to lead the state Govt. in these states only. In other areas, they are a minority. In Bangalore and New Delhi, CPI-M is not a major political power. Those areas are driven by Congress and BJP. CPI-M is not limited to south India but with very limited influence in other states.


Adding onto that, besides CPI(M) we also have CPI as a major leftist party. And ofcourse, there are other left-inclined regional parties.
About new delhi I can safely say communist parties dont have any political power, leave alone 'major' or 'minor'.
deanhills
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
vineeth wrote:
Communist Party of India (CPI-M) is prominent in the states that I mentioned above. They are getting enough votes to lead the state Govt. in these states only. In other areas, they are a minority. In Bangalore and New Delhi, CPI-M is not a major political power. Those areas are driven by Congress and BJP. CPI-M is not limited to south India but with very limited influence in other states.


Adding onto that, besides CPI(M) we also have CPI as a major leftist party. And ofcourse, there are other left-inclined regional parties.
About new delhi I can safely say communist parties dont have any political power, leave alone 'major' or 'minor'.

Now this was a major learning curve for me. I would have expected the CPI-M to be more active in the North than South, in fact I did not even know that they were active at all in India. Really interesting insight for me, thanks for the info. Smile
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