Earlier yesterday night, a Bombarder Q400 Dash 8 crashed near Buffalo. 50 people are confirmed dead (49 on plane and 1 on ground), as a plane hit a house.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/index.html
A very sad story indeed, will be interesting how the investigation turns out.
Last edited by Nick2008 on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total Scary! Wonder what must be going through the minds of the neighbours, who could equally have been the ones to be hit by the plane. What kind of bad/good luck can happen to people? I heard the community in that neighbourhood is quite a close-knit one, so they will probably be completely devastated by this and asking questions like these. Would be interesting to hear all the facts, though will probably take a while for the explanations to be forthcoming.
Just watched the NTSB meeting, the death toll is now 50, as one person was unaccounted for in the manifest (jumpseat rider).
The NTSB initial report was very interesting, I'm into aviation, and when they stated that the problems started as soon as the pilots got the gears down and flaps to 15, I started scratching my head. Could it really be a coincidence that the plane crashed in conjunction with ice during the time of the flaps going down? Or, could it have been a flap malfunction? The NTSB stated something like "As soon as the gears were down and flaps were set to 15, sudden rolls and pitches started occurring" that's when the problem started.
This information were taken from the 2 flight recorders (black boxes) that were examined in Washington, D.C. by the NTSB.
| Nick2008 wrote: |
Just watched the NTSB meeting, the death toll is now 50, as one person was unaccounted for in the manifest (jumpseat rider).
The NTSB initial report was very interesting, I'm into aviation, and when they stated that the problems started as soon as the pilots got the gears down and flaps to 15, I started scratching my head. Could it really be a coincidence that the plane crashed in conjunction with ice during the time of the flaps going down? Or, could it have been a flap malfunction? The NTSB stated something like "As soon as the gears were down and flaps were set to 15, sudden rolls and pitches started occurring" that's when the problem started.
This information were taken from the 2 flight recorders (black boxes) that were examined in Washington, D.C. by the NTSB. |
This flight brings memories back of John Kennedy's plane. Do you have any views on what had happened with his plane?It looked like he lost control of the plane while he was descending over water, sad indeed. Now sure how the weather was VFR if it was hard to see supposedly.
Back to this crash,
To me, it looks like as soon as the pilots turned on the flaps, the ice on the wings heavily changed the lift and drag ratio, causing it to go out of control. The NTSB said that the Deicer was in the ON position, but they never said when it was turned on, so I have 2 theories:
1. The Plane's Deicer malfunctioned, and it was a technical failure (it didn't clear the ice)
2. The Pilot's turned the Deicer on too late.
Will be interesting what the investigation finds.
RIP all those who were lose in the crash, my condolences to all their families and relatives.
| Nick2008 wrote: |
so I have 2 theories:
1. The Plane's Deicer malfunctioned, and it was a technical failure (it didn't clear the ice)
2. The Pilot's turned the Deicer on too late.
Will be interesting what the investigation finds.
RIP all those who were lose in the crash, my condolences to all their families and relatives. |
Definitely interesting, as if the Deicer had been turned on too late, that is going to be real bad for the airline. Would that then fall under "Pilot error"? | deanhills wrote: |
Would that then fall under "Pilot error"? |
Yes, it would probably fall under Pilot error. | Nick2008 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: |
Would that then fall under "Pilot error"? |
Yes, it would probably fall under Pilot error. |
Any more news about findings? | deanhills wrote: |
Any more news about findings?
|
This is an article posted 1 hour ago:
http://www.financialpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=1304806
It states that the Deicer was turned on 11 minutes after takeoff and remained on for the duration of the flight. The article says the crash may have been pilot's error, because the aircraft was traveling at a very slow unsafe speed during the approach for landing. The aircraft activated the stall warning, and the pilots added power and pulled the stick back, causing the plane to go up, which would cause the plane to crash. If they pushed the stick away, the nose would go down, and the plane would regain speed, recovering from the stall.
This seems to be a very good theory also. | Nick2008 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: |
Any more news about findings?
|
This is an article posted 1 hour ago:
http://www.financialpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=1304806
It states that the Deicer was turned on 11 minutes after takeoff and remained on for the duration of the flight. The article says the crash may have been pilot's error, because the aircraft was traveling at a very slow unsafe speed during the approach for landing. The aircraft activated the stall warning, and the pilots added power and pulled the stick back, causing the plane to go up, which would cause the plane to crash. If they pushed the stick away, the nose would go down, and the plane would regain speed, recovering from the stall.
This seems to be a very good theory also. |
Thanks for posting all the info in simple language that all of us could understand. That's certainly going to be a bad scene with plenty of serious damages claims in bad economic times for Continental Airlines. So much rides on the pilots. The officer who assisted was young, 24 years old! How long does it take to train for a serious commercial pilot license like that one? Can imagine their training and competence are going to be scrutinized with a fine comb! Going to be hearbreaking for their families to live through.That accident was very tragic. I think the cause of the crash was bad weather and i think the news said that the pilot overreacted or something like that. It must have been scary for the neighbors, you are just watching tv and the plane just crashes behind you. I feel sorry for all the families of the dead people
That accident was very tragic. I think the cause of the crash was bad weather and i think the news said that the pilot overreacted or something like that:?: . It must have been scary for the neighbors, you are just watching tv and the plane just crashes behind you. I feel sorry for all the families of the dead people. I relly hope something like this never happens again
| deanhills wrote: |
Thanks for posting all the info in simple language that all of us could understand. That's certainly going to be a bad scene with plenty of serious damages claims in bad economic times for Continental Airlines. So much rides on the pilots. The officer who assisted was young, 24 years old! How long does it take to train for a serious commercial pilot license like that one? Can imagine their training and competence are going to be scrutinized with a fine comb! Going to be hearbreaking for their families to live through. |
Definitely, one of the worst things for an airline is Pilot's error.
Here are the requirements for licensing:
Airline Transport Pilot License: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Transport_Pilot_License
Commerical License: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Pilot_License
It will be heartbreaking definitely, obviously the investigation isn't over, so only possibilities are posted. It might take up to a year or so for the investigation to complete. | Nick2008 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: |
Thanks for posting all the info in simple language that all of us could understand. That's certainly going to be a bad scene with plenty of serious damages claims in bad economic times for Continental Airlines. So much rides on the pilots. The officer who assisted was young, 24 years old! How long does it take to train for a serious commercial pilot license like that one? Can imagine their training and competence are going to be scrutinized with a fine comb! Going to be hearbreaking for their families to live through. |
Definitely, one of the worst things for an airline is Pilot's error.
Here are the requirements for licensing:
Airline Transport Pilot License: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Transport_Pilot_License
Commerical License: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Pilot_License
It will be heartbreaking definitely, obviously the investigation isn't over, so only possibilities are posted. It might take up to a year or so for the investigation to complete. |
Thanks for all the info. Wow, a year! Just when they had started to get over things and then it all has to be opened up again.At the least: 2-3 months
Better to get the investigation right than wrong.
Reacting to un common situations are difficult. They were flying very low already. lowering the nose to gain speed was not safe at that altitude. He may not have pulled up so much but these are mostly reflex reactions. In most of the crashes, experts point out the sequence of events that would have saved the plane until it was very late. But in practicle, the chain of errors is actually conservative and forces the pilot to further errors once the pressure has built up and the pilot is disorientated. Experiance and natural skill to remain calm is important but may not be enough and may not work in all cases.
| harismushtaq wrote: |
| Reacting to un common situations are difficult. They were flying very low already. lowering the nose to gain speed was not safe at that altitude. He may not have pulled up so much but these are mostly reflex reactions. In most of the crashes, experts point out the sequence of events that would have saved the plane until it was very late. But in practicle, the chain of errors is actually conservative and forces the pilot to further errors once the pressure has built up and the pilot is disorientated. Experiance and natural skill to remain calm is important but may not be enough and may not work in all cases. |
Almost like a car when it skids out of control. You have to do the opposite of what you would do naturally to get control of it. Something one probably needs to rehearse and practice a number of times so that it would become second nature. Maybe they were too relaxed in that split second of wrong decision. And unprepared for the consequences.
