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Holocaust Memorial Day Jan.27: Remember the Roma (Gypsies)





handfleisch
The Roma were wiped out in the Holocaust in the same percentage as the Jews. Unfortunately while the world remembers and honors the Jewish suffering, it mostly ignores the Gypsies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7844797.stm

Quote:

Roma Holocaust victims speak out

Holocaust Memorial Day on 27 January is an occasion for Jews and Roma (Gypsies)
to remind the world how their families were terrorised and butchered by the Nazis in World War II.

Roma in Vlasca, a village in southeastern Romania, told the BBC's Delia Radu about their wartime ordeal.

The wartime suffering of many Roma villagers is not well documented

The Roma people of Vlasca - traditional metal workers called Kalderash - are closed and inward-looking. They are reluctant to talk to anyone from outside the community.


http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/templer170109.html
Quote:
Roma Slated to Be Ignored at the UN Commemoration of the International Day in Memory of the Holocaust
by Bill Templer

The president of the European Roma and Travellers Forum, Rudko Kawczynski, has expressed outrage at the decision by the U.N. to formally exclude the Roma from its commemoration ceremony on International day in Memory of the Holocaust, January 27, in the General Assembly Hall in New York City. He noted that "the Holocaust was the implementation of the Final Solution, Hitler's genocide programme intended to eradicate the genetic contaminants in his plan to create a master race. Only Jews and Roma were subject to the Final Solution, and both peoples lost the same percentage of their total number. However, since the end of the war in 1945, nothing has been done to acknowledge the Romani survivors."
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:
Only Jews and Roma were subject to the Final Solution,


Hitler wrote:
kill without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language


Sure non-Jewish holocaust victims should also be remembered (and certainly not excluded), but the presence of one blatant factual error in the article leads me to wonder if there might be others...
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
The Roma were wiped out in the Holocaust in the same percentage as the Jews. Unfortunately while the world remembers and honors the Jewish suffering, it mostly ignores the Gypsies.


Perhaps where you are Handfleisch, but not in Europe. There are a large number of Euopeans who are looking after Gypsies and who will never forget. They are not so much into the media and press however as perhaps Israel is. Very few gypsies are really intellectuals, they are more down to earth people. I know someone in the Chech Republic, a doctor in paediatrics, who has dedicated most of her life to gypsies. She is now in her eighties.

Regarding percentages, it may be difficult to compare as as far as I know there were more Jews than Gypsies and the Hitler's focus of extermination was stronger on Jews than Gypsies. All you need to do is read his "Mein Kampf". If you would do a search you will hit more "Jews" than "Gypsies" in his book, he had really something about the Jews. Not that that makes any of it better or worse. All of it was evil and unforgiveable. And it happened.

I wonder about your argument as Jews and Gypsies were not the only ones to suffer in the war, remember there was the atomic bomb in Hiroshima, Japanese who were interned in the United States, and so on. War is certainly evil and reveals horrible sides of people.
ocalhoun
deanhills wrote:
remember there was the atomic bomb in Hiroshima,

Everybody remembers the nuke, but our napalm carpet-bombing of their wood and paper cities killed about 4 times as many as both the nukes did.
handfleisch
deanhills wrote:
Perhaps where you are Handfleisch, but not in Europe. There are a large number of Euopeans who are looking after Gypsies and who will never forget. They are not so much into the media and press however as perhaps Israel is. Very few gypsies are really intellectuals, they are more down to earth people. I know someone in the Chech Republic, a doctor in paediatrics, who has dedicated most of her life to gypsies. She is now in her eighties.

Regarding percentages, it may be difficult to compare as as far as I know there were more Jews than Gypsies and the Hitler's focus of extermination was stronger on Jews than Gypsies. All you need to do is read his "Mein Kampf". If you would do a search you will hit more "Jews" than "Gypsies" in his book, he had really something about the Jews. Not that that makes any of it better or worse. All of it was evil and unforgiveable. And it happened.

I wonder about your argument as Jews and Gypsies were not the only ones to suffer in the war, remember there was the atomic bomb in Hiroshima, Japanese who were interned in the United States, and so on. War is certainly evil and reveals horrible sides of people.


You're way off in your facts. The Czechs are some of the worse offenders of discrimination and persecution of Gypsies in Europe. They put a majority of Roma children into schools for the retarded, and for years had a program of forced sterilization of Roma women. There is even a former Holocaust camp for Gypsies there that, instead of being a decent memorial site, has an industrial pork factory on top of it! http://romove.radio.cz/en/article/20619
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/world/story/90B79BAF7237FC7D862574F900145DCE?OpenDocument

You are also very confused in bringing up Hiroshima. THe Holocaust refers to the Nazi plan of organized murder, and has nothing to do with the war in Japan.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
You are also very confused in bringing up Hiroshima. THe Holocaust refers to the Nazi plan of organized murder, and has nothing to do with the war in Japan.

OK, we will forget about the suffering of millions of others! They do not really count do they? Nor do they fit into the general theme of ALL your postings! I think most people in the world, including myself, are quite familiar what the Holocaust is about. I was trying to let you know that perhaps you should look at the world with a wider perspective. You seem to be very narrowly focussed and harping on the same theme all the time.
sondosia
Yes, people tend to associate the Holocaust with Jews more than other groups because six million Jews died, compared to about 2 million non-Jewish Poles and between 500,000 and 1.5 million Roma.

That's not to say that the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust should not or are not remembered and honored, but since the Jewish death toll was so excessive, naturally that will get more attention in the media and from people in general.

Also:

Quote:
while the world remembers and honors the Jewish suffering


This may be true, but YOU, handfleish, certainly do not "honor" the Jewish suffering when you constantly compare the Holocaust to the war in Gaza in all your posts on this forum.
handfleisch
sondosia wrote:

This may be true, but YOU, handfleish, certainly do not "honor" the Jewish suffering when you constantly compare the Holocaust to the war in Gaza in all your posts on this forum.

You are incorrect and your assertion is vile. I would never take it upon myself to make such a comparison. In precisely one post, not "constantly" or "in all my posts", I did point out that a Jewish lawmaker in UK compared recent Israeli military actions to Nazi actions, because I thought it important that the Israel gov't had done such horrible things that voices in the international Jewish community had to make the comparison.

I did not equate the Israeli government with all Jews in the world or even in Israel, and your implication of the same is deeply offensive and wrong.

In the thread on the UK lawmaker, you also tried to say that Israeli gov't officials under the threat of war crime prosecutions are the victims of antisemitism. Your twisted use of charges of antisemitism is insulting to Jewish people, and you should knock it off.
handfleisch
sondosia wrote:
Yes, people tend to associate the Holocaust with Jews more than other groups because six million Jews died, compared to about 2 million non-Jewish Poles and between 500,000 and 1.5 million Roma.

That's not to say that the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust should not or are not remembered and honored, but since the Jewish death toll was so excessive, naturally that will get more attention in the media and from people in general.


I reject the numbers argument. The lower total of Roma dead is simply due to the fact that were less Roma in the first place. The Holocaust against Roma was just as complete as against the Jews -- 90% wiped out in the German protectorate of the Czech lands, for example.

My point still holds -- it's outrageous that the Roma Holocaust is all but ignored. See how Berlin is only getting around to making a little memorial for the Gypsies now, 60+ years later, and the UN has just snubbed the Gypsies at the 2009 Holocaust Memorial Day.

Quote:
Berlin begins memorial to Roma killed in World War II

http://pir-mk.blogspot.com/2009/02/berlin-begins-memorial-to-roma-killed.html

http://www.dzeno.cz/?c_id=17636
Quote:

UN Today Guilty of Denying Romani Holocaust

We are enraged by the exclusion of Roma from the UN Holocaust Memorial Day, this is regardless of the mercyless slaughter of Romani in the genocide of Second World War. This is an effective denial of history and another example of the refusal to acknowledge the suffering of Romani from an institution charged with its protection. This compounds arguments that the UN is inept to operate on the behalf of the world and is afraid to commemorate history, for fear that it will offend and become unable to deal with bigoted voices opposing such a memorial. The members of the UN have not accepted their own Romani populations and so consider us to be a nation less people. Why must constantly seek recognition and basic human rights? We are an international presence and our voice can not be suppressed again, after 60 years of abandonment and relentless persecution in we are once again condemned to an undocumented history.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
sondosia wrote:
Yes, people tend to associate the Holocaust with Jews more than other groups because six million Jews died, compared to about 2 million non-Jewish Poles and between 500,000 and 1.5 million Roma.

That's not to say that the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust should not or are not remembered and honored, but since the Jewish death toll was so excessive, naturally that will get more attention in the media and from people in general.


I reject the numbers argument. The lower total of Roma dead is simply due to the fact that were less Roma in the first place. The Holocaust against Roma was just as complete as against the Jews -- 90% wiped out in the German protectorate of the Czech lands, for example.

My point still holds -- it's outrageous that the Roma Holocaust is all but ignored. See how Berlin is only getting around to making a little memorial for the Gypsies now, 60+ years later, and the UN has just snubbed the Gypsies at the 2009 Holocaust Memorial Day.

Quote:
Berlin begins memorial to Roma killed in World War II

http://pir-mk.blogspot.com/2009/02/berlin-begins-memorial-to-roma-killed.html

http://www.dzeno.cz/?c_id=17636
Quote:

UN Today Guilty of Denying Romani Holocaust

We are enraged by the exclusion of Roma from the UN Holocaust Memorial Day, this is regardless of the mercyless slaughter of Romani in the genocide of Second World War. This is an effective denial of history and another example of the refusal to acknowledge the suffering of Romani from an institution charged with its protection. This compounds arguments that the UN is inept to operate on the behalf of the world and is afraid to commemorate history, for fear that it will offend and become unable to deal with bigoted voices opposing such a memorial. The members of the UN have not accepted their own Romani populations and so consider us to be a nation less people. Why must constantly seek recognition and basic human rights? We are an international presence and our voice can not be suppressed again, after 60 years of abandonment and relentless persecution in we are once again condemned to an undocumented history.


Perhaps the Jewish, with their stronger position of having resources available to do so, were in a better position to remind the world of their holocaust than the gypsies could. The gypsies probably are much poorer, not on the media wavelength, so Handfleisch, maybe you are doing something for them that is admirable. They need to be remembered!
handfleisch
deanhills wrote:

Perhaps the Jewish, with their stronger position of having resources available to do so, were in a better position to remind the world of their holocaust than the gypsies could. The gypsies probably are much poorer, not on the media wavelength, so Handfleisch, maybe you are doing something for them that is admirable. They need to be remembered!


Thank DH, actually that's why I often just link to things, I am just trying to get the word out on the other sides of the story or whatever.
handfleisch
From a recent piece on the subject:

Quote:
As French Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld told The AP, "no French historian has really taken the time to go through the archives - French or German - to see what there is" about the Roma Holocaust.

"As we were marched through villages, others joined our group, more Romaand more gendarmes," Lendvai continued. "Some babies died along the way and some would-be escapees were shot, left by the roadside. No one knows who they were," he said.

"We were in the camp about two weeks with hardly any food and even water was scarce. More people died as typhus broke out and others were killed. The dead were thrown into a huge pit, covered with quicklime. There were layers upon layers of dead. I do not know when the pit was finally filled as one day we were herded into cattlecars, to be taken I know not where," he recalled.

"Rot you Jew Gypsy," he recalled a goon screaming at him as they were shoved onto the train.

"Why did he call me a Jew?" Lendvai still wonders.


http://pir-mk.blogspot.com/2009/02/forgotten-holocaust.html
handfleisch
Gypsies are still being killed and persecuted throughout Europe, just like they were before the Holocaust. When will the world notice or care?

Quote:
Reuters reports that Hungarian Justice Minister Tibor Draskovics admitted yesterday that the police are not succeeding in solving the murders of several Roma victims. He promised that by the end of the year the laws on armed crime would be toughened up and that police presence would be increased in rural areas. Speaking to parliament, Draskovics said the authorities were not succeeding in discovering the perpetrators even though they enjoy a 95 % success rate in solving murder cases in general. Late last year the murder of a Roma man and his young son who were fleeing their burning home in a municipality to the southeast of Budapest was the latest in a series of dozens of attacks on Roma in Hungary during which seven people total lost their lives in 2008. Human rights defenders say the attacks were incited by the paramilitary extreme-right Hungarian Guard, which holds marches in communities where the Roma minority lives to demonstrate against crime allegedly committed by the Roma. The Roma community is Hungary's largest minority, comprising 5-7 % of the country's 10 million inhabitants.


full story http://romea.cz/index.php?id=detail&detail=2007_5626
handfleisch
Quote:
A brutal arson attack took place on February 23 in the village of Tatárszentgyörgy, Hungary,
about 40 kilometers from the capital Budapest in which a Roma man and his five-year-old son were shot dead as they were trying to escape from their burning house. This attack was the 17th in a series of violent crimes in Hungary that have targeted Roma in the past year, including fire bombings of Roma homes. As with the earlier attacks, so far no suspects have been identified or detained.

Tomorrow, on March 3rd, will be the burial of the victims in the village of Tatárszentgyörgy.
Should any of you have the posibility to attend the funeral service, it will start at 1 P.M.

If not, a candle lit at that time will be an important sign of sympathy and solidarity.

Condolence: Light a candle!

Best regards

Viktória Mohácsi, MEP
Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (ALDE)
SZDSZ-The Hungarian Liberal Party
European Parliament

http://groups.google.com/group/Romano_Liloro?hl=en
deanhills
I'm sorry to hear about this Handfleisch. I sometimes wonder at where brutal acts like these come from, and somehow we share the same basic genes. Makes one shiver in your boots. Sad
gandalfthegrey
"In addition to Jews, the targeted groups included Poles (of whom 2 million gentile Poles were killed) and some other Slavic peoples, Soviets (particularly prisoners of war), Romanies (also known as Gypsies), some Africans, Asians and others who did not belong to the "Aryan race", the mentally ill, physically disabled and the mentally retarded, homosexuals and transsexual people, and political opponents and religious dissidents such as communists, trade unionists, and Jehovah's Witnesses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
deanhills
gandalfthegrey wrote:
"In addition to Jews, the targeted groups included Poles (of whom 2 million gentile Poles were killed) and some other Slavic peoples, Soviets (particularly prisoners of war), Romanies (also known as Gypsies), some Africans, Asians and others who did not belong to the "Aryan race", the mentally ill, physically disabled and the mentally retarded, homosexuals and transsexual people, and political opponents and religious dissidents such as communists, trade unionists, and Jehovah's Witnesses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

Thanks for this insight. Looks as though it is still continuing in different ways by different countries in different parts of the World. How about Zimbabwe which when Mugabe took over, just about exterminated the Matebele tribe (under Nkomo), Sudan and Dafur, Sri Lanka and the Tamil Tigers, Rwanda, numerous others in our present day. Even with remembering the holocaust of Hitler's time, holocaust is still continuing and the world does not seem to be effective to stop it at all Twisted Evil
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