just watch and try to understand....not a month....not a year...8 years!!
can you understand what its mean??
if someone will throw stones on you, will you won't response during 8 years?? and this is just stones...
we talk about rockets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ALektW1Wo i think it's political things..
it's difficult to be ended since both parties always want to take revenges..
please just stop the fighting..both of parties will get hurt and no advantages for that..
reconsider the civilian life that is innocent..
No, I would respond. I just wouldn't attack humanitarian aid trucks with my tanks, bomb refugee camps, and bomb ambulances.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| attack humanitarian aid trucks with my tanks, bomb refugee camps, and bomb ambulances. |
Examples of this?
Since Israel signed the geneva conventions, all these actions would be illegal, and must be prosecuted. | liljp617 wrote: |
| No, I would respond. I just wouldn't attack humanitarian aid trucks with my tanks, bomb refugee camps, and bomb ambulances. |
Sounds a bit extreme! Can't believe that it happened this way. I am not saying the Israeli's record is perfect, but perhaps it is not only at war with the Palestinians, but also with the media? And of course the moment you are in a position to defend yourself, i.e. the accusations have already been made, the worse it gets.Everyone of those actions has been in the headlines at least once (some numerous times) in just this recent battle.
(This is from today if I recall correctly)
| Quote: |
| The U.N. suspended food deliveries to Gaza and the Red Cross accused Israel of blocking medical assistance after forces fired on aid workers, killing two, as the threat of a wider conflict emerged with Lebanon. |
| Quote: |
| In Geneva, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it would restrict aid operations to Gaza City for at least one day after one of its convoys came under Israeli fire at the Netzarim crossing during the three-hour lull in fighting Thursday. One driver was lightly injured. |
| Quote: |
| The international Red Cross also accused Israel of hindering rescuers from reaching areas devastated in the battles. Ambulances could not get to the Zeitoun neighborhood for four days because the Israelis had blocked access with large earthen barriers, officials said. |
(There have been ambulances and their drivers killed directly by Israeli attacks...examples can be found in a number of places. This isn't one of the examples, I just thought it stood out in this article.)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
The Jabaliya refugee camp has been hit more than once so far, I believe. A simple Google search will pull up numerous articles. Also, the UN-run school (al-Fakhura) that was recently hit had many students from this refugee camp and many of the deaths in relation to that attack were individuals/students from this camp.
I'm not here to point fingers. I don't care about media bias or any claims as such; these are simple facts and figures. The point is, people continue to try to put Israel on some grand pedestal and pretend they do nothing wrong just because western governments support them to an extent and "Arabs are inferior."
They have a right to defend themselves and end the rocket attacks. They don't have a right to do many of the things they're doing and the excuses are getting frustrating and annoying. If the rocket attacks persist so heavily after a thirteen day assault from a powerful military as their own, they need to rework their strategy....and part of that has to be restoring power to the 60% of Gaza civilians that no longer have it, getting people a fresh water supply (or at least allowing it to move in without threat), and allowing someone to manage the sewage system that is near failure (which will inevitably lead to widespread disease). You cannot do many of the things Israel is doing and continue to claim self-defense. Something is to change. i think Israel's response is a bit too much. The number of innocent people who have died is just crazy to me. They basically bomb a whole street to kill one Hamas militant. But then you can also somewhat understand their position. Hamas sends rockets into Israel on a regular basis. After a while something has to give!! So Hamas is also at blame. Why can't these people agree on a two state solution? If not, just nuke the whole place and lets start all over!!!! But seriously this is one of those conflicts that is really annoying me because its been this way for as long as most people can remember!!
liljp617, Thanks for all the documentation and here's some more.
| Quote: |
Red Cross: Israel breaking int'l law, letting children starve in Gaza
The International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the Gaza Strip and demanded it grant safe access for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances to return to evacuate more wounded.
Relief workers said they found four starving children sitting next to their dead mothers and other corpses in a house in a part of Gaza City bombed by Israeli forces, the Red Cross said on Thursday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053877.html |
The Hamas psychos shooting a handful of rockets is one thing; Israel's mass murdering, international-law defying response is another. Especially since in this equation, Hamas is symbolically "them" and Israel is "us" (to the tune of $3 billion per year). | handfleisch wrote: |
liljp617, Thanks for all the documentation and here's some more.
| Quote: | Red Cross: Israel breaking int'l law, letting children starve in Gaza
The International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the Gaza Strip and demanded it grant safe access for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances to return to evacuate more wounded.
Relief workers said they found four starving children sitting next to their dead mothers and other corpses in a house in a part of Gaza City bombed by Israeli forces, the Red Cross said on Thursday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053877.html |
The Hamas psychos shooting a handful of rockets is one thing; Israel's mass murdering, international-law defying response is another. Especially since in this equation, Hamas is symbolically "them" and Israel is "us" (to the tune of $3 billion per year). |
There is so much of this kind of reporting that is going round. The BBC reporter on site at least had something professional to say that reporters have been unable to get access to Gaza, so cannot confirm whether these allegations are true. | handfleisch wrote: |
liljp617, Thanks for all the documentation and here's some more.
| Quote: | Red Cross: Israel breaking int'l law, letting children starve in Gaza
The International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the Gaza Strip and demanded it grant safe access for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances to return to evacuate more wounded.
Relief workers said they found four starving children sitting next to their dead mothers and other corpses in a house in a part of Gaza City bombed by Israeli forces, the Red Cross said on Thursday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053877.html |
The Hamas psychos shooting a handful of rockets is one thing; Israel's mass murdering, international-law defying response is another. Especially since in this equation, Hamas is symbolically "them" and Israel is "us" (to the tune of $3 billion per year). |
I'm not going to put either of them above the other, and I suggest you don't either. | handfleisch wrote: |
The Hamas psychos shooting a handful of rockets is one thing; Israel's mass murdering, international-law defying response is another. |
Explain to me how Hamas intentionally firing rockets at civilian targets is not mass murdering and (international and national) law-defying...
Both sides are guilty here; one side is trying to stop the violence, and the other is persistently keeping the violence going. Which of those sides should be supported?I don't think that any of the sides at this point are actually trying to stop the violence. It looks like it'll never stop, hope it does soon though.
| liljp617 wrote: |
I'm not going to put either of them above the other, and I suggest you don't either. |
Agreed -- the Israeli gov't is no better than the Hamas psychos. And that's the shame. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: |
The Hamas psychos shooting a handful of rockets is one thing; Israel's mass murdering, international-law defying response is another. |
Explain to me how Hamas intentionally firing rockets at civilian targets is not mass murdering and (international and national) law-defying...
Both sides are guilty here; one side is trying to stop the violence, and the other is persistently keeping the violence going. Which of those sides should be supported? |
Neither. If they were trying to stop violence, they wouldn't put 1.4 million people in a cage, blockade them from every necessity on this planet, subdue them to casual blackouts, bomb refugee camps, hit UN schools, attack humanitarian aid trucks, break the 100+ UN resolutions they have in the past, etc.
On a side note, in order to be mass murdering people, you have kill more than a few people. Hamas certainly isn't in the process of mass murdering; neither side is. | liljp617 wrote: |
On a side note, in order to be mass murdering people, you have kill more than a few people. Hamas certainly isn't in the process of mass murdering; neither side is. |
Whoa.
| Quote: |
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsmrjKAqkshaygppisP-rG6A1k5gD95J81P00
UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza
By IBRAHIM BARZAK and KARIN LAUB – 1 day ago
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tiny bodies lying side by side wrapped in white burial shrouds. The cherubic face of a dead preschooler sticking up from the rubble of her home. A man cradling a wounded boy in a chaotic emergency room after Israel shelled a U.N. school.
Children, who make up more than half of crowded Gaza's 1.4 million people, are the most defenseless victims of the war between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli army has unleashed unprecedented force in its campaign against Hamas militants, who have been taking cover among civilians.
A photo of 4-year-old Kaukab Al Dayah, just her bloodied head sticking out from the rubble of her home, covered many front pages in the Arab world Wednesday. "This is Israel," read the headline in the Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Youm. The preschooler was killed early Tuesday when an F-16 attacked her family's four-story home in Gaza City. Four adults also died.
As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded — about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday. |
and
| Quote: |
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/zeitoun.gaza.israel/?iref=mpstoryview
Israel kills 30 civilians at shelter, witnesses tell U.N.
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli forces shelled a house where they had ordered about 100 Palestinian civilians to take shelter, killing about 30 people and wounding many more, witnesses told the U.N.
Ambulance drivers wait for Israel and the Red Cross to give them the green light Thursday to leave Gaza City.
Israel Defense Forces said it is looking into the allegations.
"Credible eyewitness accounts" described the incident, which occurred in the volatile Gaza City suburb of Zeitoun, said Allegra Pacheco, deputy head of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for the Palestinian territories. Pacheco spoke to CNN on Friday.
Witnesses reported that "about 100 civilians were evacuated" to a house Sunday, and the structure was shelled Monday, she said. The witnesses told the U.N. that two of the survivors said their children died.
|
That's not mass murder?Its really sad that innocent people are getting killed. Hope soon there will be peace in Gaza area.
Its really sad that innocent people are getting killed. Hope soon there will be peace in Gaza area.
| Cddhesh wrote: |
| Its really sad that innocent people are getting killed. Hope soon there will be peace in Gaza area. |
yeah it is - but they had enough time to escape... im pro israel! | handfleisch wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: |
On a side note, in order to be mass murdering people, you have kill more than a few people. Hamas certainly isn't in the process of mass murdering; neither side is. |
Whoa.
| Quote: | http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsmrjKAqkshaygppisP-rG6A1k5gD95J81P00
UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza
By IBRAHIM BARZAK and KARIN LAUB – 1 day ago
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tiny bodies lying side by side wrapped in white burial shrouds. The cherubic face of a dead preschooler sticking up from the rubble of her home. A man cradling a wounded boy in a chaotic emergency room after Israel shelled a U.N. school.
Children, who make up more than half of crowded Gaza's 1.4 million people, are the most defenseless victims of the war between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli army has unleashed unprecedented force in its campaign against Hamas militants, who have been taking cover among civilians.
A photo of 4-year-old Kaukab Al Dayah, just her bloodied head sticking out from the rubble of her home, covered many front pages in the Arab world Wednesday. "This is Israel," read the headline in the Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Youm. The preschooler was killed early Tuesday when an F-16 attacked her family's four-story home in Gaza City. Four adults also died.
As many as 257 children have been killed and 1,080 wounded — about a third of the total casualties since Dec. 27, according to U.N. figures released Thursday. |
and
| Quote: | http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/zeitoun.gaza.israel/?iref=mpstoryview
Israel kills 30 civilians at shelter, witnesses tell U.N.
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli forces shelled a house where they had ordered about 100 Palestinian civilians to take shelter, killing about 30 people and wounding many more, witnesses told the U.N.
Ambulance drivers wait for Israel and the Red Cross to give them the green light Thursday to leave Gaza City.
Israel Defense Forces said it is looking into the allegations.
"Credible eyewitness accounts" described the incident, which occurred in the volatile Gaza City suburb of Zeitoun, said Allegra Pacheco, deputy head of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for the Palestinian territories. Pacheco spoke to CNN on Friday.
Witnesses reported that "about 100 civilians were evacuated" to a house Sunday, and the structure was shelled Monday, she said. The witnesses told the U.N. that two of the survivors said their children died.
|
That's not mass murder? |
I notice you quote articles only of the deaths Israel causes, when the point would be made much better if you included one article on each, instead of both about Israel.
What justification is there for being supportive of the cause of Hamas? | ocalhoun wrote: |
I notice you quote articles only of the deaths Israel causes, when the point would be made much better if you included one article on each, instead of both about Israel.
What justification is there for being supportive of the cause of Hamas? |
Either you're trolling or you're not paying attention. Either way it's a bogus smear tactic for you to imply I am being supportive of Hamas. Above I referred to Hamas as "psychos" -- does that sound supportive of their cause? (Maybe that's a compliment where you're coming from.)
I posted articles about the atrocities by Israel precisely in answer to liljp617's assertion that Israel cannot be accused of mass murder.
liljp617 had replied to you like this
| Quote: |
in order to be mass murdering people, you have kill more than a few people. Hamas certainly isn't in the process of mass murdering; |
so reply to him on the subject of Hamas being not guilty of mass murder if you like | handfleisch wrote: |
| Either you're trolling or you're not paying attention. Either way it's a bogus smear tactic for you to imply I am being supportive of Hamas. Above I referred to Hamas as "psychos" -- does that sound supportive of their cause? (Maybe that's a compliment where you're coming from.) |
Thanks for the explanation as now I am wiser too. My impression was the same as Ocalhoun's. Perhaps it is the way that you are quoting newspaper articles, content of which is definitely supportive of Hamas. The articles completely domineered the postings and it is almost all you can see. If you had put more of your own views in the postings with the newspaper articles, it may have been clearer what your intent with the articles was.
Added to this, the articles may not necessarily be accurate as everyone knows that news reporters are not allowed access into Gaza, so cannot verify the reports they are publishing, or commenting on. And so of course we are not hearing anything about the missiles going the other way to Israel, and that in its own right should prove that the newspaper reports are coming primarily from Hamas supporters. We're being manipulated by Hamas via the media. | deanhills wrote: |
| Thanks for the explanation as now I am wiser too. My impression was the same as Ocalhoun's. Perhaps it is the way that you are quoting newspaper articles, content of which is definitely supportive of Hamas. If you had put more of your own views in the postings with the newspaper articles, instead of cryptic one-liners, it may have been clearer what your intent with the articles was and we would have had a greater understanding where you are coming from. |
Thanks for the support. You may be right, and I should say where I am coming from more often. On the internet you can take nothing for granted.
The only part of your message I would differ with is
| deanhills wrote: |
| you are quoting newspaper articles, content of which is definitely supportive of Hamas. Added to this, the articles may not necessarily be accurate as everyone knows that news reporters are not allowed access into Gaza, so cannot verify the reports they are publishing, or commenting on. And so of course we are not hearing anything about the missiles going the other way to Israel, and that in its own right should prove that the newspaper reports are coming primarily from Hamas supporters. We're being manipulated by Hamas via the media. |
Please go back and read the articles, from AP and the CNN. In no way are the articles supportive of Hamas; they are just reporting on the slaughter of civilians in Gaza by the Israeli army. Remember, the rest of the world except the US is condemning Israel, so it's the pro-Israel apologists that are totally on the fringe in this case (but in our screwed up world, are considered legitimate).
There are plenty of articles about the Hamas rockets from Gaza. In fact I would hazard to say all general articles in the main news outlets on the attack on Gaza mention it.
I don't know where you are getting this idea that "We're being manipulated by Hamas via the media". How the heck would they do that? How can you call some CNN reporter a "Hamas supporter"? If someone told you this, they are selling you a really ridiculous pile of junk, in the category as Elvis sightings in a UFO etc.
All this is a distraction from the fact that in response to a few dozen Hamas rockets that (terribly) have murdered a small number of Israelis, Israel is, right now at this moment, killing a huge number of the people of Gaza, men, women and children; the only country supporting them is the US, while the rest of the world is recoiling in horror. There's the bias to be worried about.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4209242/Israeli-strike-on-civilian-house-may-be-war-crime-says-UN-gaza.html
| Quote: |
Israeli strike on civilian house may be 'war crime' says UN
The United Nations has called for Israel to be investigated for war crimes over the shelling of a house full of Palestinian civilians which left dozens dead.
Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said the attack, first revealed in The Telegraph, on members of the extended Samouni family in the Gazan town of Zeitoun "appears to have all the elements of war crimes."
Her remarks came after the International Committee of the Red Cross accused Israel of breaking the rules of war by failing to help the wounded in the incident.
According to the ICRC, four infant children were found too weak to stand after clinging for 48 hours to what ambulance crew believed to be the corpses of their mothers while Israeli soldiers were less than 100 yards away.
Under the rules of war, soldiers have an obligation to treat properly the survivors of combat.
Speaking to an emergency session of the UN Human Rights Council Miss Pillay said Palestinian militants firing rockets into Israel was "unacceptable'' but that it did not justify alleged abuses committed by the Israeli army. |
| handfleisch wrote: |
| All this is a distraction from the fact that in response to a few dozen Hamas rockets that (terribly) have murdered a small number of Israelis, Israel is, right now at this moment, killing a huge number of the people of Gaza, men, women and children; the only country supporting them is the US, while the rest of the world is recoiling in horror. There's the bias to be worried about. |
So how would you, if you were the leader of Israel, deal with Hamas? How would you protect your citizens in southern Israel from indiscriminate rocket attacks? How would you protect them from suicide terrorist attacks?
What if the U.S. found itself in the same position as Israel? Hypothetically, suppose Mexico declared the Southwestern United States to be "occupied territory" and demanded that region be returned to Mexican governance. The U.S. refuses, of course. Then, not possessing the conventional military capability to retake Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California by force, Mexico starts committing suicide attacks against soft, civilian targets in the United States and routinely fires rockets indiscriminately into cities like Brownsville, El Paso, San Diego, perhaps as far north as Corpus Christi. How would the United States react? What would be the President's responsibility to the citizens of those cities?
Mind you, I personally believe Mexico has a much stronger historical claim to those four states than the Palestinians do to any territory in the region known as Palestine.
I don't think Israel is overreacting at all. A nation has a responsibility to protect its citizens. This is the most basic reason for a government's existence. If the government cannot do so, it isn't worth the blood and/or ink spilled to create it. Should a nation in Israel's position simply say, "Well, it's just a few citizens of ours that are killed each year. We shouldn't worry too much about it."?
Should they respond in kind to the attacks, an eye for any eye so to speak? Lob a rocket into Gaza for every rocket Gaza lobs into Israel (year after year after year). Is that satisfactory? Is that protecting her citizens? Of course it is not. That's revenge and retaliation with no hope of saving the lives of future Israelis or creating a lasting peace.
You said that in response to “a few dozen Hamas rockets” Israel is “killing a huge number of the people of Gaza, men, women and children.”
I see it this way:
In response to routine and continual indiscriminate attacks by Hamas aimed at killing Israeli civilians and inciting terror into her population, Israel launched a military offensive with several objectives in mind: destroy or seriously damage Hamas’ ability to launch rockets, destroy or seriously damage Hamas command and control in Gaza, destroy or seriously damage Hamas’ ability to rule in Gaza (and thereby perhaps create conditions in which Fatah may regain control), destroy or seriously damage Hamas smuggling activity and networks, destroy or seriously damage Hamas’ conventional military capability (such as it is), and finally at the end of military operations negotiate and receive a peace settlement that better guarantees the safety of Israeli citizens from future attacks by Hamas from Gaza.
As a result of this operation (as in all military operations) Palestinian civilians will regrettably be killed. But killing or harming Palestinian civilians is not an objective of the Israeli military offensive. It is, like I said, a regrettable consequence due to the nature of warfare, the style with which Hamas chooses to fight (non-uniformed, fighting from civilian structures and areas, etc.), and the population density in the area of operations. Palestinian civilian deaths are not intentional.
Think about it logically. Even if the Israeli leadership could care less about Palestinian civilians (which I don’t think they do) they would do everything within their power and technology to limit civilian casualties in this conflict because the larger the civilian death toll, the less tenable their geopolitical position becomes (as you so aptly pointed out). Thus logic alone, regardless of conscience or morality, dictates that Israel limit Palestinian civilian casualties as much as feasible while still achieving her military and political objectives.
Respectfully,
M | handfleisch wrote: |
| There are plenty of articles about the Hamas rockets from Gaza. In fact I would hazard to say all general articles in the main news outlets on the attack on Gaza mention it. |
I have not seen any articles showing photos of the bodies of the Israelis who died as a result of the missiles. No graphic details, and no detailed account at the horror of it. If there are less bodies, does that make it less horrific? And why are there more bodies in Gaza? Because it is a densely populated area with Hamas military using Palestinians as a human shield. Hamas has a choice to stop sending missiles to Israel. Why are they continuing with the missiles? Why did they not stop a long time ago?
| Quote: |
| How can you call some CNN reporter a "Hamas supporter"? If someone told you this, they are selling you a really ridiculous pile of junk, in the category as Elvis sightings in a UFO etc. |
As far as I know I did not say the reporters were Hamas supporters. I said that their source of reports are limited to people who support Hamas. There is a difference here.Hi DH,
I have seen photos of injured Israelis being taken away, etc. Not as often, I think because it is less frequent.
I think there are more photos of the people that Israeli army has killed because there are so many more of them, and Israeli is destroying entire buildings at a time with huge amounts of weapons in a bombing and invasion campaign that is going on weeks now, etc, while Hamas only manages to send a handful of missiles into Israel every now and then, and most of the missiles don't hit anything with people in it.
Also, given that Israel is a strong ally of the US and receives so much financial and military "aid" from the US, reports on what they are doing is a more compelling news angle in western news.
I don't know why the Hamas people keep sending these missiles, and my speculation wouldn't count for much.
If you read the news reports, the sources of the eyewitness accounts are various. There are lots of photos and other evidence that add up to the fact that the reports are generally true, that Israel is bombing and shooting the hell out of Gaza and tons of civilians are getting killed. Therefore it isn't fair, humane or even sane to dismiss the reports because sources could be construed as supporters of Hamas.
| Moonspider wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: | | All this is a distraction from the fact that in response to a few dozen Hamas rockets that (terribly) have murdered a small number of Israelis, Israel is, right now at this moment, killing a huge number of the people of Gaza, men, women and children; the only country supporting them is the US, while the rest of the world is recoiling in horror. There's the bias to be worried about. |
So how would you, if you were the leader of Israel, deal with Hamas? How would you protect your citizens in southern Israel from indiscriminate rocket attacks? How would you protect them from suicide terrorist attacks?
What if the U.S. found itself in the same position as Israel? Hypothetically, suppose Mexico declared the Southwestern United States to be "occupied territory" and demanded that region be returned to Mexican governance. The U.S. refuses, of course. Then, not possessing the conventional military capability to retake Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California by force, Mexico starts committing suicide attacks against soft, civilian targets in the United States and routinely fires rockets indiscriminately into cities like Brownsville, El Paso, San Diego, perhaps as far north as Corpus Christi. How would the United States react? What would be the President's responsibility to the citizens of those cities?
Mind you, I personally believe Mexico has a much stronger historical claim to those four states than the Palestinians do to any territory in the region known as Palestine.
|
A very good question, and one that anyone who is bashing Israel in this should have a very good answer for. | handfleisch wrote: |
Hi DH,
I have seen photos of injured Israelis being taken away, etc. Not as often, I think because it is less frequent.
I think there are more photos of the people that Israeli army has killed because there are so many more of them, and Israeli is destroying entire buildings at a time with huge amounts of weapons in a bombing and invasion campaign that is going on weeks now, etc, while Hamas only manages to send a handful of missiles into Israel every now and then, and most of the missiles don't hit anything with people in it.
Also, given that Israel is a strong ally of the US and receives so much financial and military "aid" from the US, reports on what they are doing is a more compelling news angle in western news.
I don't know why the Hamas people keep sending these missiles, and my speculation wouldn't count for much.
If you read the news reports, the sources of the eyewitness accounts are various. There are lots of photos and other evidence that add up to the fact that the reports are generally true, that Israel is bombing and shooting the hell out of Gaza and tons of civilians are getting killed. Therefore it isn't fair, humane or even sane to dismiss the reports because sources could be construed as supporters of Hamas. |
Thanks Handfleisch. I guess the reasons for Hamas continuing with the missiles, even before the war started must baffle a lot of people. Maybe a political guru like Kissinger will come up with some good insights one of these days. I look forward to some sensible thinking about the matter one of these days. I am also very curious what is going on in Egypt regarding the deliberations there. Everything that is really meaningful seems to be hush-hush, so probably will be kept in the dark for a while to come.Moonspider,
you raise some interesting issues. As a UK citizen I can perhaps offer a perspective that most US citizens lack - since we have been engaged with terrorism for many decades and, although we were not attacked daily by the IRA, there were sufficient attacks of sufficient atrocity to make it a real issue.
Now, of course in the case of the IRA the majority support came from both the US and the republic of Ireland. Obviously invading the US was not an option, and invading the republic of Ireland would have been rather drastic. At times when the attacks on the mainland increased there was political pressure to do something - I would argue that this is analogous in many ways to the current situation in Gaza. Our experience was that whenever military or 'police' measures were taken the situation got worse. Examples would be the introduction of the 'shoot to kill' policy and the introduction of internment without trial. Both of these ratcheted-up the tension and were counter-productive.
I disagree with you about the validity of the Palestinian claim. Their claim to a single 'homeland' is, I believe, both valid and internationally recognised. It is not possible to isolate a single strip of land (the Gaza strip) and treat it in isolation. There is also the issue of the West Bank and of Jerusalem itself. Obviously Israel is not going to be happy about granting independence to the West Bank territory whilst Hamas are still, effectively, the ruling party. They have done business (belatedly) with the Palestinian Authority, but the foot-dragging led to the current crisis where, effectively, Palestinian representation is split between the moderates in the PA and the more militant Hamas. The current move in Gaza is, however, a mistake. The goals were clearly artificial - the stated aim being to reduce or even end the rocket attacks. This war will do nothing towards that goal - it is highly probably that the reverse will happen. The action was prompted entirely by political considerations, without clear military objectives. This is always a mistake.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_white_phosphorus
Somehow, I'm just not seeing how using weapons of this nature fits in with their supposed military goal. What is the purpose of these types of weapons if they're truly there solely to stop the rocket attacks? Certainly, these aren't the best counter to the rockets. | liljp617 wrote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_white_phosphorus
Somehow, I'm just not seeing how using weapons of this nature fits in with their supposed military goal. What is the purpose of these types of weapons if they're truly there solely to stop the rocket attacks? Certainly, these aren't the best counter to the rockets. |
The article explicitly states some of the uses of white phosphorous rounds in military operations.
Respectfully,
M | Moonspider wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_white_phosphorus
Somehow, I'm just not seeing how using weapons of this nature fits in with their supposed military goal. What is the purpose of these types of weapons if they're truly there solely to stop the rocket attacks? Certainly, these aren't the best counter to the rockets. |
The article explicitly states some of the uses of white phosphorous rounds in military operations.
Respectfully,
M |
Israel is using these weapons of mass death and phosphorous (glowing napalm) in civilian areas in the attack on Gaza, and as Olmert said yesterday, it's "an unprecedented national effort that restored the spirit of unity to the nation".
In other words, massacring Palestinian women and children has made them feel better about themselves as a country. Which is sick.
| Quote: |
White phosphorus sticks to human skin and will burn right through to the bone, causing death or leaving survivors with painful wounds which are slow to heal.
The international convention on the use of incendiary weapons says it should not be used where civilians are concentrated. |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497710.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823078.stm | Moonspider wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_white_phosphorus
Somehow, I'm just not seeing how using weapons of this nature fits in with their supposed military goal. What is the purpose of these types of weapons if they're truly there solely to stop the rocket attacks? Certainly, these aren't the best counter to the rockets. |
The article explicitly states some of the uses of white phosphorous rounds in military operations.
Respectfully,
M |
Yes, and how is this the most effective way to stop rocket attacks (or even a remotely effective way at all)? It's not, it does nothing but cause harm to the innocent. There is absolutely no purpose to use these types of weapons as it stands right now and they do not provide any significant counter to stopping the rocket attacks (which I'm told time and again is Israel's main and only goal).^Actually, what Israel is doing does seem like it is working. The rocket attacks have been declining recently, and have hit a low not seen since the whole thing began now.
Morally wrong and possibly illegal as these actions may be, they get results.
Would they get the same results without using these weapons? Probably, but who's to say?
Personally, I say let Israel defend itself for now, and when the conflict ends, put them on trial for war crimes. (Which would be an excellent excuse to cut off aid money if they are found guilty.) Note though, it should be a trial by court, not trial by media, and it should happen after the fact, not during.
If Israel will prosecute those who made the decisions to use such tactics, that would be fine. If not, the country as a whole should be investigated to see if they violated the Geneva conventions.
| Quote: |
The article explicitly states some of the uses of white phosphorous rounds in military operations. |
But does it state that it was used 'where civilians are concentrated'? As I understand it, there are rural/farmland areas within Gaza, where it would be acceptable to use white phosphorous in some cases.
The article includes a lot of 'might have been's and 'uncertain's as well, and seems to assume the worst, even in unclear cases. This is exactly why these things should be settled in a courtroom setting, where both sides can present real evidence, and that can't happen until after the conflict ends.
It is quite likely that Israel has become too emboldened and has stretched the Geneva conventions too far. If that is the case, they should be held accountable for it after it is over. Good news that the missiles are declining, but it would be great news if the missiles would stop completely. I think if Israel needs to account for their military actions, possibly Hamas would need to do that too. If they had stopped with their missiles, Israel would have stopped too. Israel has always been clear about that. So in effect, by continuing their missiles, Hamas was also responsible for harm to the people in Gaza. I cannot help but wonder whether this is another mass suicide justification along the many ones we have seen over the years. How could it be any different? Hamas knew Israel were going to attack them if they continued with launching missiles into Israel, and once Israel started, Hamas knew that if it stopped its missiles that Israel would also stop. Hamas saw what was happening to its own people, yet still continued with launching missiles at Israel! That has been total suicide of the people in Gaza. Wonder what is happening with the smuggling of weapons in those underground tunnels. Almost like Vietnam. This is going to haunt the world for a very long time to come.
Here's the latest from the US's great ally Israel. So much for being the democracy of the middle east.
| Quote: |
Israel bans Arab parties from coming election
By JOSEF FEDERMAN – 5 hours ago
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel on Monday banned Arab political parties from running in next month's parliamentary elections, drawing accusations of racism by an Arab lawmaker who said he would challenge the decision in the country's Supreme Court.
The ruling by parliament's Central Election Committee reflected the heightened tensions between Israel's Jewish majority and Arab minority caused by Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip. Arabs have held a series of demonstrations against the offensive. |
| deanhills wrote: |
| Good news that the missiles are declining, but it would be great news if the missiles would stop completely. I think if Israel needs to account for their military actions, possibly Hamas would need to do that too. If they had stopped with their missiles, Israel would have stopped too. Israel has always been clear about that. So in effect, by continuing their missiles, Hamas was also responsible for harm to the people in Gaza. I cannot help but wonder whether this is another mass suicide justification along the many ones we have seen over the years. How could it be any different? Hamas knew Israel were going to attack them if they continued with launching missiles into Israel, and once Israel started, Hamas knew that if it stopped its missiles that Israel would also stop. Hamas saw what was happening to its own people, yet still continued with launching missiles at Israel! That has been total suicide of the people in Gaza. Wonder what is happening with the smuggling of weapons in those underground tunnels. Almost like Vietnam. This is going to haunt the world for a very long time to come. |
So what should the people of Gaza do so that Israel stops treating them like beasts and starving them?
What should Hamas do considering Israel/Egypt are not going to lift the blockade and they're not going to treat the people there as equals? | handfleisch wrote: |
| Quote: | drawing accusations of racism by an Arab lawmaker who said he would challenge the decision in the country's Supreme Court.
|
|
That's the nice thing about being in a country with a modern form of government. There is something you can do about it besides violent revolution.
| liljp617 wrote: |
So what should the people of Gaza do so that Israel stops treating them like beasts and starving them? |
I dunno. If I lived there, I would have moved away long ago. I'm sure there are some advantages to living there, but there are also some obvious disadvantages that would seem to outweigh nearly anything.
| Quote: |
What should Hamas do considering Israel/Egypt are not going to lift the blockade and they're not going to treat the people there as equals? |
Smuggle in food instead of rockets perhaps? Hm? | liljp617 wrote: |
So what should the people of Gaza do so that Israel stops treating them like beasts and starving them?
What should Hamas do considering Israel/Egypt are not going to lift the blockade and they're not going to treat the people there as equals? |
It's obvious most people here don't have a clue about daily life in Gaza and how Israel treats Palestinians on a daily basis. Good luck using this forum to make that otherwise.I don't claim to know what it's like either, but I do no it's not good and it could be a hell of a lot better. And there is more to blame than Hamas for it being this way.
| handfleisch wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: |
So what should the people of Gaza do so that Israel stops treating them like beasts and starving them?
What should Hamas do considering Israel/Egypt are not going to lift the blockade and they're not going to treat the people there as equals? |
It's obvious most people here don't have a clue about daily life in Gaza and how Israel treats Palestinians on a daily basis. Good luck using this forum to make that otherwise. |
Can you clarify what you mean here Handfleisch? I thought the conflict was about Gaza, so could it be that Hamas is sending missiles to Israel because of its bad treatment of Palestinians in Israel? The conflict is more than just about Gaza?despite the very one sided media, the conflict (to me) seams to be very one sided. Israel doesnt need violence, Palestine does... it needs it for control, aid, unity... etc
Ambulance bomb
[url]
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5762250887658784368&ei=hEVsSZCZMaqyqAO5t4TTAg&q=palestine+ambulance+bomb&hl=en[/url] Asymmetrical warfare is a strange concept, but many poeple would be more than happy to sacrifice 13 million Arabs (less than 1 percent of the Muslim population) to end the lives of 13 million Jews (100% of the population.)
another thing that cant be overlooked... ones government calls for piece, another calls for the extermination of a country and religion.
Israel has shown more constraints than any other county would have, and still gets such increadable criticism....
| BorisD wrote: |
| Israel doesnt need violence, Palestine does... it needs it for control, aid, unity... etc |
Well said Boris. Completely different take on it for me. That is so very true. I never thought about the stats like that, but I can well believe that Hamas would regard the people they are hiding behind in Gaza as a worthy sacrifice, and that they will be well rewarded by their suffering in terms of their religious beliefs. Israelis would be a bit more stingy about Israeli deaths, so if it had perhaps been in reverse, wonder whether the Israelis would have hidden behind women and children like Hamas did, and allowed them to face missiles from day to day when so many of them are dying around Hamas. So yes, your statement that Hamas needs this violence for unity, control as well as support from the rest of the world has to be true. If not, Hamas would not have put its own people at risk, as it has had over a very long period of time. | deanhills wrote: |
| BorisD wrote: | | Israel doesnt need violence, Palestine does... it needs it for control, aid, unity... etc |
Well said Boris. Completely different take on it for me. That is so very true. I never thought about the stats like that, but I can well believe that Hamas would regard the people they are hiding behind in Gaza as a worthy sacrifice, and that they will be well rewarded by their suffering in terms of their religious beliefs. Israelis would be a bit more stingy about Israeli deaths, so if it had perhaps been in reverse, wonder whether the Israelis would have hidden behind women and children like Hamas did, and allowed them to face missiles from day to day when so many of them are dying around Hamas. So yes, your statement that Hamas needs this violence for unity, control as well as support from the rest of the world has to be true. If not, Hamas would not have put its own people at risk, as it has had over a very long period of time. |
Hey guys, sorry but to be frank this is a pile of garbage and I don't have much time to tell you all the reasons why. But:
1. Dean, just for an example, please take a look at your siblings or aunts/uncles or spouse. Now choose 2 of them at random. Now imagine that they are in a building that Israel bombs and one of them is killed and the other has their legs amputated. How do you feel? A bit sad and angry, at least, right? Now you'd like to turn to your parents, but they were both killed 27 years ago when the Israeli military allowed the Christian Philangists to massacre all the palestinian refugees they could in the Sabra. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre). You would like to turn to your wife and child, but they died in childbirth inside an ambulance that the Israelis would not allow through a checkpoint. These checkpoints are a part of your daily life, reminding you of your loss constantly.
This is but a quick example, but if this was your life, wouldn't you possibly be angry enough to want revenge, and in fact angry enough to want that revenge for the rest of your life, no matter what?
Or at least are you ready to say you cannot possible judge such a person?
2. Americans should be the last ones to pass judgment on Palestinians, since Americans just finished dropping thousands of tons of bombs killing and maiming many tens of thousands of innocents for fabricated reasons in Iraq. Hamas (whom I do not support) have a lot more reasons (in their mind) to shoot rockets than Americans ever did to mass-bomb and occupy Iraq. | BorisD wrote: |
| Asymmetrical warfare is a strange concept, but many poeple would be more than happy to sacrifice 13 million Arabs (less than 1 percent of the Muslim population) to end the lives of 13 million Jews (100% of the population.) |
I am not happy about either. Let's end that silly logic there. There is no "better" on the loss and murder of innocent individuals.
| BorisD wrote: |
another thing that cant be overlooked... ones government calls for piece, another calls for the extermination of a country and religion.
Israel has shown more constraints than any other county would have, and still gets such increadable criticism.... |
This is the point I've tried to iterate many times: People want to put Israel on a pedestal, when in fact, they've committed just as many (or more) atrocities, much more murder and injury of innocent people, they've defied hundreds of UN resolutions, they failed to let in the amount of aid trucks they agreed to in the ceasefire agreements, they attacked an humanitarian aid truck, they're using chemical weapons that serve no purpose what so ever in this war outside of burning off the skin of innocent people, etc.
STOP PUTTING THEM ON A GODDAMN PEDESTAL. That's all I ask. Neither side is good here. They're both bad and their actions and silly, lame excuses for murder prove this.
Last edited by liljp617 on Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:32 am; edited 4 times in total | liljp617 wrote: |
| Let's end that silly logic |
The internet would collapse | handfleisch wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | Let's end that silly logic |
The internet would collapse |
While we are at this ... 
.... let's not forget the few hundred that passed away in Iraq ... or was it more than that? Oops ... of course that was not the fault of the United States, it was Bush who pushed the United States into it?
So talking about logic .... your'e right, nothing silly about it, we are all depending on it .... 
| deanhills wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: | | liljp617 wrote: | | Let's end that silly logic |
The internet would collapse |
While we are at this ... .... let's not forget the few hundred that passed away in Iraq ... or was it more than that? Oops ... of course that was not the fault of the United States, it was Bush who pushed the United States into it?
So talking about logic .... your'e right, nothing silly about it, we are all depending on it .... |
Not sure I understand what you're saying? The death/injury toll in Iraq is WAYYYYY higher than a few hundred.
There's a lot more blame to go around besides just Bush (he played his role of course). The invasion was approved by the other branches of government as much as any other declaration of war has ever been approved, so there are plenty of others to blame.
The war was also largely supported the general US population (of course, they were fairly deluded, lied to, and supporting out of fear/revenge against something that had no connection to 9/11).
But maybe you could clarify what you're saying, because I didn't catch on to your point.^ The USA's goals towards the Iraqi government, and later the terrorists and insurgents there were much the same as Hamas' goals towards Israel. Though the balance of power is much different in the two examples, the action/reaction is much the same.
The USA tries to exterminate the Saddam's Iraqi government, the insurgents, and the terrorists, which forces them to fight back or disband, which is why the US often gets blamed for all the casualties in Iraq, even those caused exclusively by terrorist attacks.
Compare that to:
Hamas tries to exterminate Israel, which forces them to fight back (or possibly flee the region?), which is why I would blame Hamas for all the casualties in Gaza, even those caused exclusively by Israeli attacks.
I just switched the names involved around, but the situation remains much the same.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | handfleisch wrote: | | liljp617 wrote: | | Let's end that silly logic |
The internet would collapse |
While we are at this ... .... let's not forget the few hundred that passed away in Iraq ... or was it more than that? Oops ... of course that was not the fault of the United States, it was Bush who pushed the United States into it?
So talking about logic .... your'e right, nothing silly about it, we are all depending on it .... |
Not sure I understand what you're saying? The death/injury toll in Iraq is WAYYYYY higher than a few hundred.
There's a lot more blame to go around besides just Bush (he played his role of course). The invasion was approved by the other branches of government as much as any other declaration of war has ever been approved, so there are plenty of others to blame.
The war was also largely supported the general US population (of course, they were fairly deluded, lied to, and supporting out of fear/revenge against something that had no connection to 9/11).
But maybe you could clarify what you're saying, because I didn't catch on to your point. |
Sorry liljp617, I could not help myself. I was being totally sarcastic of course! Point being, so many fingers are pointed in the direction of deaths in Gaza and it being gruesome and horrific with fingers pointing at Israel, however the toll in Iraq, the infrastructure that was destroyed, the tragedy resulting, were collectively much worse, and of course the invasion, in comparison with Hamas who has been provoking Israel with missiles, a total surprise and unprovoked as of course the wmds were never found. This of course does not minimize anything in Gaza, it was just when someone mentioned "silly logic", that I had to agree with it along these lines . | deanhills wrote: |
Sorry liljp617, I could not help myself. I was being totally sarcastic of course! Point being, so many fingers are pointed in the direction of deaths in Gaza and it being gruesome and horrific with fingers pointing at Israel, however the toll in Iraq, the infrastructure that was destroyed, the tragedy resulting, were collectively much worse, and of course the invasion, in comparison with Hamas who has been provoking Israel with missiles, a total surprise and unprovoked as of course the wmds were never found. This of course does not minimize anything in Gaza, it was just when someone mentioned "silly logic", that I had to agree with it along these lines . |
liljp617's point is about the basic humanity or lack thereof of the replies here, and you reply with attempts at sarcasm.
Gaza's infrastructure is being destroyed. Israel is bombing clinics and schools, including universities that promoted tolerance and moderate Islam.
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7m4dg/israel_bombs_university_in_gaza/
| Quote: |
Gaza clinic destroyed in strike
The charity Christian Aid says a clinic for mothers and babies in Gaza, which it funds along with the EU, has been destroyed in an Israeli air strike.
The clinic, which was run by the Near East Council of Churches, was struck by a missile after a 15-minute warning was sent to the building's owners.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of medical equipment was destroyed by the strike, which happened on Saturday. |
A UN building for storing aid and medical supplies has been blown up by Israel using tanks and shells.
They decide to use white phosphorous shells on it too.
Alright, so you're violating the Geneva Conventions by using white phosphorous in civilian areas... not only that, you decide to use it at a UN building where there were UN monitors... Smooth.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/15/gaza.aid.plea/index.html all of u who support israel and the US in what they r doing in gaza right now, get a life!!!im dead serious!!!a single israeli or a US citizen is killed, every1 strts dropping bombs.and wat the lives of those hundreds of innocent women and children have no value?!?!?!since the war strted iv heard of only one hamas leader being killed.i mean israel may have the 2nd most sophisticated military but they lack brains and actually heart.no aid can get thru.the hospitals have to run on back up generators.israel thinks making the palestinians live in such an appalling condition will bring peace on their country and they talk about a free world.bloody hypocrites!!!and they keep on bombing refugee camps and UN compounds even though both theses type of places are marked.don't tell me tht these are isolated incidents or they had mechanical failures.there's a reason for most of the muslim world hating israel.they have constantly prevented us from calling jersulaem our own as well.it belongs to us as much it belongs to the jewish religion.and something for US supporters out there.if US does care about dictatorship in iraq and north korea - the so called cause for the war in iraq - where are they now to help african countries like somalia.they go and tell the UN to send peace keeping troops.i mean wtf!?!?!
DOWN WITH ISRAEL AND US
| jurl wrote: |
just watch and try to understand....not a month....not a year...8 years!!
can you understand what its mean??
if someone will throw stones on you, will you won't response during 8 years?? and this is just stones...
we talk about rockets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ALektW1Wo |
The Palestinian people have EVERY RIGHT to resist occupation, just like any other person in the world.
WHo are we to deny the Palestinians the right to their freedoms when we are witnessing on our tv screens every day, for the past 60 years, the holocaust of the Palestinian people.
Sure killing innocent people will always be wrong. But it is a complete shame that the people who say that they are not killing innocent people are in fact killing more innocent women and children than those who say they "supposedly" are.
And yes, if the world gave Hamas missiles to pin-point accuracy, we would see less civilian deaths. You cannot say that for Israel.
Israel bombs UN buildings, hospitals, red cross/crescent ambulances, on many many occasians. How can you ever explain that?
The state of Israel of today is illegal under International Law and immoral. The forcing of millions of Palestinians out of their very homeland to make way for the Jews, and now commiting the holocaust of the Palestinian people is shameful. It shows we have not learnt from history.
Long live the Palestinian resistence!!! for if the Palestinians laid down their sticks and stones, then there would be no Palestine. Sure, I cry for innocent children that die, but who actually doing the killing? At a ratio of 10 Palestinian children dead for every Israeli child, the Israelis are the modern Nazi Germany.
Death to "Political" Zionism, once outlawed by the UN as a racist organisation. IMO, it remains so.!!Amnesty Int'l:
http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=jlKUK5PSJlIULjK&s=fqJQISMtHeLQJ1PIIsH&m=hoLRJ1PCImIYF
| Quote: |
20 days into the Gaza crisis and the humanitarian crisis there gets worse each day. 398 women and children are dead, another 4700 injured, 750,000 lack access to water and one million are without electricity. Each day that passes guarantees more innocent civilians will suffer. Tell Congress to act swiftly to help humanitarian workers get into Gaza and to suspend all transfers of weapons to Israel.
It’s critical that Congress acts. Congress can take two actions that will make a significant impact on the ground:
1. Urge Israel to allow for increased humanitarian supplies into Gaza and press Egypt to allow more wounded Palestinians to seek medical treatment in Egypt.
The Israeli three hour truce to allow for humanitarian supplies to enter Gaza is not sufficient. A spokesman for the UN relief agency UNWRA said “When you are trying to feed 750,000 people a day in Gaza as we are, you need a permanent ceasefire. You can’t do that in a three-hour window.”8
Although Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing allowing limited medical help in and injured Palestinians out, the number allowed to seek medical care outside of Gaza needs to increase dramatically. There are currently 4500 wounded Palestinians.
2. Suspend all transfers of weapons to Israel until there is no longer a substantial risk that they will be used for serious violations of human rights or international humanitarian law -- such as in attacks that disproportionately kill civilians -- while pressing all sides to stop unlawful attacks.
AI is calling for a comprehensive arms embargo on Israel, Hamas and Palestinian armed groups. The US Arms Export Act of 1976 was passed to help guarantee that US-made weapons would only be used for legitimate self-defense and not for violations of internationally recognized human rights. The act requires the State Department to report to Congress when there is a ‘’substantial violation” of the law9.
These demands comply with widely recognized international human rights law. |
| handfleisch wrote: |
You would like to turn to your wife and child, but they died in childbirth inside an ambulance that the Israelis would not allow through a checkpoint. These checkpoints are a part of your daily life, reminding you of your loss constantly.
|
I don't suppose you watched the video:
But that explains pretty well why the checkpoints have to be there, even for ambulances.
Watch it, and please tell my why ambulances should be exempt from search.Could someone in defense of Israel explain to me how bombing UN offices in Gaza is self-defense against the rocket attacks?
I'm genuinely interested. People continue to desire putting Israel on a pedestal, and I can't seem to grasp why at all.
The real reason might be found when you Google Project Northwoods. wiki describes it as:
Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag conspiracy plan, proposed within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for CIA or other operatives to kill American civilians and commit apparent acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Castro-led Cuba. One plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".
This operation is especially notable in that it included plans for hijackings and bombings followed by the use of phony evidence that would blame the terrorist acts on a foreign government, namely Cuba.
The plan states,
"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."
I want to see proof about the seize fire being broken by Hamas first. I don't support Hamas, like nobody would agree with the actions Cuba did at the time. But since Israel doesn't stop the bombing, combined with huge amounts of natural gas in the gazastrip, you might wonder what the real reason is for the attack. I never hear of people in Israel dying or getting wounded by the thousands from attacks. So that just can't be the real reason. A lot of websites report about how Israel took 8 months to prepare this attack and they where just waiting for a reason to trigger the operation.
| liljp617 wrote: |
Could someone in defense of Israel explain to me how bombing UN offices in Gaza is self-defense against the rocket attacks?
I'm genuinely interested. People continue to desire putting Israel on a pedestal, and I can't seem to grasp why at all. |
Think if you read through this thread you will find that nobody is on the side of Israel. Perhaps I missed a posting that put Israel on a pedestal? Some are on the side of the Palestinians. Most of us are not on the side of either of the two. I think it is an awesome tragedy, and that both are seriously to be blamed. I find Hamas cowards for hiding behind women and children and allowing them to be killed. If they are as serious as they say about their concerns for their people, they would never have allowed the war to happen in the first place. They had a choice to stop the missiles when they were warned that Israel would attack (before the attacks started). Hamas nonetheless continued with the missiles and to me there is no doubt that they were provoking Israel. Hamas' choices to me are ones that do not support peace. Israel's choice is one of wanting to be completely rid of terrorists and the risk of terrorists firing into Israel, and as far as I can see, it is going into literal overkill. Right now Israel is working hard to get as much advantage as it can so that if and when the two sit together for peace one day, that it would have maximum advantage. Hamas of course knows it, and that is why it is resisting ceasefire, and guess what, that is Hamas's choice, and the choice is costing serious lives of its people.
Palestinians are not the only people who are suffering in the world, but seem to have the world's attention with a virtual mass suicide mission. It is almost the equivalent of holding up women and children as targets for Israel to hit at. And to make sure that plenty of photos are taken on a daily basis to put it on enormous bill boards for the world to see. So that the world will join in the fight with them. I believe the damage has been calculated by both sides ahead of the war. Israel is trying its best to not hit civilian targets, but Hamas is shrewd to hide behind them. Israel must have calculated on that, as much as Hamas has calculated on it too, to its advantage in terms of all the atrocities that Israel has committed now.I don't buy that either side cares about the people on the other side, I don't buy that either side is attempting to eliminate collateral damage.
This is what I'm talking about putting Israel on a pedestal.
Don't you think it's a tad odd that Israel has now hit UN related projects more than once now. The most recent attack against the UN was with white phosphorus shells (which are clearly outlawed from use in civilian areas) that set fire to many pallets of humanitarian supplies inside the UNWRA headquarters. After this recent attack by Israel, the UNWRA, which looks after thousands of refugees in the Gaza region, has suspended their operations in Gaza and is likely to pull out for fear of their employees' dying or being injured.
You basically have the (what is supposed to be) moderating force moving out. What do you think Israel is going to do when the international pressure lessens?
| liljp617 wrote: |
I don't buy that either side cares about the people on the other side, I don't buy that either side is attempting to eliminate collateral damage.
This is what I'm talking about putting Israel on a pedestal.
Don't you think it's a tad odd that Israel has now hit UN related projects more than once now. The most recent attack against the UN was with white phosphorus shells (which are clearly outlawed from use in civilian areas) that set fire to many pallets of humanitarian supplies inside the UNWRA headquarters. After this recent attack by Israel, the UNWRA, which looks after thousands of refugees in the Gaza region, has suspended their operations in Gaza and is likely to pull out for fear of their employees' dying or being injured.
You basically have the (what is supposed to be) moderating force moving out. What do you think Israel is going to do when the international pressure lessens? |
I would like to see international proof of the attack on UN with the phosphurus shells first. Usually people get a hearing before they are judged about a serious issue like this. For example how does the media get their information about what is going on in Gaza? From what I heard, the media is not allowed in, so how do all these accusations get verified?
Israel has said from the beginning it will stop if the Palestinians stop firing their missiles. Why are the Palestinians still continuing with firing missiles into Israel, when they know that this is putting their own people in harm's way? We have two guilty parties here, not only one! | deanhills wrote: |
I would like to see international proof of the attack on UN with the phosphurus shells first. Usually people get a hearing before they are judged about a serious issue like this. For example how does the media get their information about what is going on in Gaza? From what I heard, the media is not allowed in, so how do all these accusations get verified? |
Seriously, do you ever read any news at all? | handfleisch wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: |
I would like to see international proof of the attack on UN with the phosphurus shells first. Usually people get a hearing before they are judged about a serious issue like this. For example how does the media get their information about what is going on in Gaza? From what I heard, the media is not allowed in, so how do all these accusations get verified? |
Seriously, do you ever read any news at all? |
I actually do Handfleisch. I also believe that one needs to investigate an accusation like this first, before you come to a conclusion. If you check out the BBC you will see they are much more careful about how they report. They are very clear about their sources of information, and when they report on something as serious as this, they are very careful in their opinions. I admire that. Since this is so serious one would expect this to be investigated on an international forum and evidence heard. I am almost certain that that will have to happen in light of the serious charges that have been made. Where I come from, someone is innocent until they have been proven guilty. Not the other way round. Hamas obviously also needs to be investigated at the same time. | deanhills wrote: |
| If you check out the BBC you will see they are much more careful about how they report. They are very clear about their sources of information, and when they report on something as serious as this, they are very careful in their opinions. I admire that. |
Loll at trusting the bbc.
Did you trust the BBC over the Iraq and WMD scandal?
Did you trust the BBC when it said Ahmedinejhad wanting to wipe Israel off the map ? @ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4384264.stm
The major Western Medias are PRO-ZIONIST!! That is a fact. Nothing is covered more bias in favour of Israel in the Western Media thann the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Listen to Chomsky and you will learn!! Watch occupation 101 and you will see!! | deanhills wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: | | deanhills wrote: |
I would like to see international proof of the attack on UN with the phosphurus shells first. Usually people get a hearing before they are judged about a serious issue like this. For example how does the media get their information about what is going on in Gaza? From what I heard, the media is not allowed in, so how do all these accusations get verified? |
Seriously, do you ever read any news at all? |
I actually do Handfleisch. I also believe that one needs to investigate an accusation like this first, before you come to a conclusion. If you check out the BBC you will see they are much more careful about how they report. They are very clear about their sources of information, and when they report on something as serious as this, they are very careful in their opinions. I admire that. Since this is so serious one would expect this to be investigated on an international forum and evidence heard. I am almost certain that that will have to happen in light of the serious charges that have been made. Where I come from, someone is innocent until they have been proven guilty. Not the other way round. Hamas obviously also needs to be investigated at the same time. |
Gee, that's strange, DH, that you claim to monitor the BBC, since reports of what is now being described as war crimes by Israel is all over the BBC. These aren't minor reports from unreliable sources these are "massive violations of human rights" and there is an investigation into Israel's war crimes. In the last couple days, Israel tanks have opened fire on UN school where refugees were sheltering, killing two children, and all while the head of the UN was in Israel! Israel obviously is either totally out of control or is saying "F you" to every other country and international organization in the world screaming for them to stop the insanity and mass murdering of civilians, including dozens of children.
If you scanned the media at all you would know this. I think you are more comfortable with your head in the sand. By the way, for the second time, which country in the Middle East do you live in?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
| Quote: |
Israel is facing growing demands from senior UN officials and human rights groups for an international war crimes investigation in Gaza over allegations such as the "reckless and indiscriminate" shelling of residential areas and use of Palestinian families as human shields by soldiers.
With the death toll from the 17-day Israeli assault on Gaza climbing above 900, pressure is increasing for an independent inquiry into specific incidents, such as the shelling of a UN school turned refugee centre where about 40 people died, as well as the question of whether the military tactics used by Israel systematically breached humanitarian law.
The UN's senior human rights body approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Israeli offensive for "massive violations of human rights". A senior UN source said the body's humanitarian agencies were compiling evidence of war crimes and passing it on to the "highest levels" to be used as seen fit.
Some human rights activists allege that the Israeli leadership gave an order to keep military casualties low no matter what cost to civilians. That strategy has directly contributed to one of the bloodiest Israeli assaults on the Palestinian territories, they say.
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| Quote: |
| I would like to see international proof of the attack on UN with the phosphurus shells first. Usually people get a hearing before they are judged about a serious issue like this. For example how does the media get their information about what is going on in Gaza? From what I heard, the media is not allowed in, so how do all these accusations get verified? |
I think UN officials are credible in what they say and are capable of recognizing certain weapon usage (it is one of the big things they're supposed to monitor after all). I think medical officials who have seen numerous people come in with severe burns that are attributed to chemicals such as white phosphorus are credible. I think a rocket that causes a lot of fire that can't be put out with conventional methods (white phosphorus can't be put out with a fire extinguisher) is evidence enough of these not being normal rockets.
I find it odd you ask for a more official investigation/proof that Israel is using white phosphorus when the evidence is all there, but you don't seem to mind (you don't make it evident at least; I hope you do) that Israel intentionally hit the UN headquarters in Gaza and has hit UN convoys. Wouldn't you rather have an official investigation of that? I certainly would.
| Quote: |
| Israel has said from the beginning it will stop if the Palestinians stop firing their missiles. Why are the Palestinians still continuing with firing missiles into Israel, when they know that this is putting their own people in harm's way? We have two guilty parties here, not only one! |
I'm not claiming this to be fact, but I would imagine it has something to do with Israel coming through and killing 1,200 (mostly innocent) people as a result of what...a few Israeli deaths (not that less murder of innocents by Hamas is any more respectable)? I would imagine it has something to do with Israel (and Egypt) having zero respect for Palestinian life and refusing to lift the blockade, or at least refusing to meet their end of the bargain in the recent ceasefire. I would imagine it has something to do with Israel claiming they care about collateral damage, yet they purposely bomb refugee camps, hospitals, UN convoys, UN office buildings, and use chemical weapons that are outlawed in civilian areas, etc.
I don't claim anyone is innocent here outside of the obvious innocent masses being killed. I've said from day one that I do not take a side and that both parties are impossible to deal with. I only speak up against Israel because there are still people who are trying to justify or even defend their actions. Very few people are truly defending Hamas; they may state reasons why Hamas is acting like they are, but few people really believe the terrorist branch of Hamas is a good thing. It's not the same with Israel; many people still continue to try to put them on come moral pedestal and continue to say this is self-defense when it clearly isn't. I find it necessary to speak out against such views.
If people were going on and on about how the terrorist branch of Hamas was merely acting in self-defense, I would speak up against that as well. If Hamas were killing/injuring thousands of innocent people, were bombing UN locations, were using banned chemical weapons, etc. and people still tried to defend them, I would do my best to tear those defenders down (and I do my best with those people; it may not always look like it here, but I'm in this very discussion on 2-3 other forums, so I distribute my posting around).I think the current attack was launched for entirely polical reasons;
1) The upcoming elections in Israel
2) The recent US election and the transitional state of US politics.
Israel chose the time carefully, there was no military imperative for the current war.
| Bikerman wrote: |
I think the current attack was launched for entirely polical reasons;
1) The upcoming elections in Israel
2) The recent US election and the transitional state of US politics.
Israel chose the time carefully, there was no military imperative for the current war. |
I agree that Israel chose the timing very well for the above reasons, including new year's when it took Government people longer to get together, but there is a power struggle here for sure and definitely a military objective. A lot has to do with the smuggling of weopons through Egypt. I can imagine that that would be crucial for Israelis to be contained. Hence why so many of the initiatives to get a ceasefire going are focussed on this and negotiations in Egypt are more crucial than anything coming from the UN.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| If people were going on and on about how the terrorist branch of Hamas was merely acting in self-defense, I would speak up against that as well. If Hamas were killing/injuring thousands of innocent people, were bombing UN locations, were using banned chemical weapons, etc. and people still tried to defend them, I would do my best to tear those defenders down (and I do my best with those people; it may not always look like it here, but I'm in this very discussion on 2-3 other forums, so I distribute my posting around). |
I understand where you are coming from iljp617. I am not defending any of the two parties. To my mind both are guilty. There is a forum for investigating the allegations on both sides and the media is not the right place for it. I am almost certain that an international investigation and hearing will take place. Common sense says that. Think once there has been a ceasefire and all the allegations can be properly investigated, that we will have a greater chance to see things objectively. Sad part is that the investigation and hearing are probably going to drag on for ages, we will relive the war and this will have a good chance of deepening the conflict even further.They are digging out the bodies of women and children during the Gaza ceasefire
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/18/gaza.bodies/index.html
It's mass murder.
And as a UK Jewish lawmaker whose family went thru the Holocaust said: Israeli forces are acting like Nazis
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/16/uk.israel.debate/ | handfleisch wrote: |
| They are digging out the bodies of women and children during the Gaza ceasefire |
Might be going off topic, but why is an innocent woman dying any more significant than an innocent man dying? | Hogwarts wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: | | They are digging out the bodies of women and children during the Gaza ceasefire |
Might be going off topic, but why is an innocent woman dying any more significant than an innocent man dying? |
True Hogwarts. Why aren't they digging out bodies of men as well? Perhaps Handfleisch can help us out with this question?Anthony H. Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies stated recently that white phosphorous can be used against military targets according to the international law (see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3666995,00.html). In any case, the only case really proven of use of phosphorous bombs was the one send by the Palestinians to the Israeli Negev area. Israel is not guilty of any unlawful military operation in Gaza, Hamas, who shielded itself behind children and used ambulances, mosques, schools and hospitals to shield its "fighters" is guilty of severe war crimes. Of course innocent civilians were killed or hurt during the operations of the last incursion in the Gaza strip. That was unavoidable when you have to attack a terrorist gang who operates from within the civilian fabric in the small area of 360 km2. During World War II, England send war planes to bombard the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen, which I believe was a legitimate target, but they missed and killed some dozens of innocent kids in a hospital. But this doesn't make the British pilot a war criminal, no matter how unfortunate the incident was. The objective was not to kill innocent people but leaders of a criminal organization as the Nuremberg judges called the Gestapo. However, in all wars, mistakes are made. With all its efficiency, the Israel Defense Forces killed some of their own under friendly fire. Of course also innocent civilians of the Gaza strip payed the price of the foolishness of the Hamas aggression, but whilst the IDF did what they could to avoid civilian casualties, the fanatic murders of the Hamas islamic gang looked pricesely to hurt civilians. On one side, the Israelis made thousands of phone calls to alert the Palestinian civilian population of incoming attacks in order to try to save as many lives as possible of innocent people, on the other, the last "Grad" missile the Palestinians fired against the Israeli coastal city of Ashkelon, was send precisely at the time that children go to school, mothers take their little children to kindergardens, and innocent civilians go to work. That is why morality and justice is on the Israeli side, will Hamas is an ugly and murderous gang, which should be fought with all will and energy. As far as I am concerned both sides are wrong.
Those guys lobbing missiles into Israel are wrong. And the only reason they aren't killing hundreds is that they lack the capability. They would do it if they could. They are wrong and the fact that that Hamas supports it makes them illegitimate as leaders of that area as far as I'm concerned.
Israel is dead wrong too. There is no excuse for killing of hundreds of innocents.
People arguing shades of grey here are not doing anybody any good. Both sides are out of line. If in one side is less out of line here it doesn't make their actions acceptable.
Of course its a war by proxy since Israel is substantially supported by the USA and most assume Iran to support Hamas. So I would go on to say that USA and Iran are wrong too. Maybe they should talk and see if they can tone down the violence.
cheers,
david
| davidfromoz wrote: |
| Israel is dead wrong too. There is no excuse for killing of hundreds of innocents. |
Substantially less in proportion than most other wars. Although I'm interested in other ideas you'd have that somehow would be completely flawless and not have any 'innocents' killed in the process; especially when Hamas is using schools and zoos as shields. | Hogwarts wrote: |
| davidfromoz wrote: | | Israel is dead wrong too. There is no excuse for killing of hundreds of innocents. |
Substantially less in proportion than most other wars. Although I'm interested in other ideas you'd have that somehow would be completely flawless and not have any 'innocents' killed in the process; especially when Hamas is using schools and zoos as shields. |
Israel killed up from 80 to 100 Gazans for every 1 Israeli killed. Israeli military slaughtered women waving white flags and illegally used special weapons in dense urban areas, creating hideous wounds in survivors. I agree with David, there's no excuse. | GLOBALSTRATEGY wrote: |
| Hamas, who shielded itself behind children and used ambulances, mosques, schools and hospitals to shield its "fighters" is guilty of severe war crimes. |
Absolutely, this seems to be missed all the time in the news reports. Also, Hamas comes from a totally different culture and religion. Suicide missions are OK for special reasons, something that would be totally unheard off in the Western world. | handfleisch wrote: |
| Israeli military slaughtered women waving white flags |
You have just completely discredited yourself by playing the "only women and children could possibly beinnocent in times of war" card.
Please, kindly remove yourself from the internet.
| handfleisch wrote: |
| Israel killed up from 80 to 100 Gazans for every 1 Israeli killed. |
Great. Israel has exercised restraint. If Hamas had such capacity, they would kill untold numbers of Israeli people simply as a hate-crime. Israel is, unintentionally, killing Gazans, in a bid to annihilate Hamas after several years of exercising restraint as their civilians near the Gaza strip lived in terror. | Hogwarts wrote: |
| handfleisch wrote: | | Israeli military slaughtered women waving white flags |
You have just completely discredited yourself by playing the "only women and children could possibly beinnocent in times of war" card.
Please, kindly remove yourself from the internet. |
Hard to figure out what you're taking about but it is surely whacked, and so the discredit is flowing in the reverse direction.Pardon? Who's being gender biased here? My apologies 
| Hogwarts wrote: |
| Pardon? Who's being gender biased here? My apologies |
Is there a translator in the house who can figure out what this person is trying to say? | handfleisch wrote: |
| Is there a translator in the house who can figure out what this person is trying to say? |
I don't think any translation is necessary Handfleisch. Hogwarts expressed dissatisfaction with your exclusive focus on women and children as victims of the war in Gaza, and labelled that as being sexist.
