How do Christians explain agriculture? I was reading through the Old Testament recently and it was talking about agriculture, but it never, unless I missed it, talked about how it was invented. As far as humans know, agriculture took many years to discovered. It's not exactly an easy thing to come up with; that's why it took so long for it to come around (and it's, in my opinion, the most important invention/discovery of all time). So do Christians just assume that God created people knowing how to grow food (which is clearly not true, because not everyone has the knowledge to be a farmer)? Or do they believe that God taught Adam and Eve, which passed that knowledge on? But then why would he teach Adam and Eve since they had the garden already? Did he teach them after they were banished? I would just like to know where it came from.
How do Christians explain agriculture?
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| How do Christians explain agriculture? I was reading through the Old Testament recently and it was talking about agriculture, but it never, unless I missed it, talked about how it was invented. As far as humans know, agriculture took many years to discovered. It's not exactly an easy thing to come up with; that's why it took so long for it to come around (and it's, in my opinion, the most important invention/discovery of all time). So do Christians just assume that God created people knowing how to grow food (which is clearly not true, because not everyone has the knowledge to be a farmer)? Or do they believe that God taught Adam and Eve, which passed that knowledge on? But then why would he teach Adam and Eve since they had the garden already? Did he teach them after they were banished? I would just like to know where it came from. |
Well, I guess the second generation of humans was the first to really do agriculture, as it mentions that Cain (or was it Abel... I need to refresh my memory about the story, but it was one of them) was mentioned as having a garden. I suppose that's a little fast for them to figure out how to garden on their own, so they must have had a little help. Then again, perhaps that Cain was just a particularly bright person and figured it out.
It wouldn't really take much to figure out...
"Hey, you know that place where I dropped a bunch of seeds by accident?"
"Yeah"
"Well, now there's a bunch of plants just like the ones the seeds came from growing there"
"Hey, I wonder if we could do that on purpose and make them grow where we want them, all convenient like?"
| ocalhoun wrote: |
|
It wouldn't really take much to figure out... "Hey, you know that place where I dropped a bunch of seeds by accident?" "Yeah" "Well, now there's a bunch of plants just like the ones the seeds came from growing there" "Hey, I wonder if we could do that on purpose and make them grow where we want them, all convenient like?" |
No... it's much more than that. Agriculture is not an easy thing. That's why it took many years (ignoring the ridiculous biblical story) to learn agriculture. It's not just "dropping seeds" and watching them grow. Sure, you may get a few plants that way, but to grow an entire field is much harder. It takes all the understanding that the crops need a certain amount of water, sun, care, etc. I'm sure that learning basic soil properties took at least a generation in themselves... Of course you can figure that out after a few years when the place you've been growing no longer supports your crops.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| How do Christians explain agriculture? I was reading through the Old Testament recently and it was talking about agriculture, but it never, unless I missed it, talked about how it was invented. As far as humans know, agriculture took many years to discovered. It's not exactly an easy thing to come up with; that's why it took so long for it to come around (and it's, in my opinion, the most important invention/discovery of all time). So do Christians just assume that God created people knowing how to grow food (which is clearly not true, because not everyone has the knowledge to be a farmer)? Or do they believe that God taught Adam and Eve, which passed that knowledge on? But then why would he teach Adam and Eve since they had the garden already? Did he teach them after they were banished? I would just like to know where it came from. |
Probably this is a question for our experts: Chris and Indi? It has me stumped and guessing. Very unscientific. Perhaps agriculture evolved as part of evolution of mankind and in fertile areas surrounding rivers, the Nile and also parallel in China, the Americas, everywhere. From a Christianity point of view it probably came from God through human beings as they evolved, especially when they stopped hunting and started to settle down and do farming.
| deanhills wrote: |
| Probably this is a question for our experts: Chris and Indi? It has me stumped and guessing. Very unscientific. Perhaps agriculture evolved as part of evolution of mankind and in fertile areas surrounding rivers, the Nile and also parallel in China, the Americas, everywhere. From a Christianity point of view it probably came from God through human beings as they evolved, especially when they stopped hunting and started to settle down and do farming. |
Well it's fairly certain that agriculture is only 10,000 years old. That fits conveniently with the Creation idea of the age of the Earth and human beings. Now modern human beings are about 130,000-200,000 years old (the fossil records in Africa show about 130,000 years, but molecular biology gives evidence for 200,000 years - I do not know which is more likely). So according to evidence, agriculture has only been around for 5%-7.7% of modern (modern not counting Neanderthals from about 500,000 years ago) human history, yet Creationists claim that it's been around for nearly ALL of human history.
If evidence shows that this is extremely difficult thing to do (given the amount of time it took to come up with agriculture), I simply want to know how Creationists explain that. It's not a question for science experts like Bikerman and Indi; it's a question for Creationists and their "science experts (oxymoron)" like "Dr." Kent Hovind.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| Well, I guess the second generation of humans was the first to really do agriculture, as it mentions that Cain (or was it Abel... I need to refresh my memory about the story, but it was one of them) was mentioned as having a garden. I suppose that's a little fast for them to figure out how to garden on their own, so they must have had a little help. Then again, perhaps that Cain was just a particularly bright person and figured it out.
It wouldn't really take much to figure out... "Hey, you know that place where I dropped a bunch of seeds by accident?" "Yeah" "Well, now there's a bunch of plants just like the ones the seeds came from growing there" "Hey, I wonder if we could do that on purpose and make them grow where we want them, all convenient like?" |
Isn't it obvious? They were watching God when he was watering the forbidden fruit tree!
Seriously though, I think we all know there can't be a satisfactory answer for this. One could say "God gave them the knowledge" or "they gained the knowledge when they ate the fruit" or "Adam used over 90% of his brain, unlike us who only use 10%" (I actually heard this one, but not in relation to the topic of agriculture).
Anyways, it's best to just accept that it's a story with inconsistencies and leave it at that (if only it were that easy for those who take this book literally).
Another issue in genesis is supposedly Adam and Eve, along with their two sons are the only people in the world. When Cain kills Abel and God curses/exiles him, Cain fears other humans will kill him. He also finds a wife, etc.
Seriously though, I think we all know there can't be a satisfactory answer for this. One could say "God gave them the knowledge" or "they gained the knowledge when they ate the fruit" or "Adam used over 90% of his brain, unlike us who only use 10%" (I actually heard this one, but not in relation to the topic of agriculture).
Anyways, it's best to just accept that it's a story with inconsistencies and leave it at that (if only it were that easy for those who take this book literally).
Another issue in genesis is supposedly Adam and Eve, along with their two sons are the only people in the world. When Cain kills Abel and God curses/exiles him, Cain fears other humans will kill him. He also finds a wife, etc.
| miacps wrote: |
| Another issue in genesis is supposedly Adam and Eve, along with their two sons are the only people in the world. When Cain kills Abel and God curses/exiles him, Cain fears other humans will kill him. He also finds a wife, etc. |
No... For some reason, everyone seems to forget about their third child, Seth.
Unless the murder was done before Seth was born (but I don't think so). It's been a while sense I've read The Bible so my facts may be a little sketchy.
As for the rest of what you said, I agree. Creationists always seem to use that type of cop-out (God gave them the knowledge!).
Also, who actually claimed that nonsense about Adam using 90% of his brain while we only use 10%? Well that's pretty laughable considering we do use much more than 10% of our brains... but most of that is for other functions (like breathing) that we just don't think about.
Edit:
I just went and checked the Bible and Abel was already dead when Seth was born... you're correct.
| Genesis 4:25 wrote: |
| Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." |
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | ||
No... it's much more than that. Agriculture is not an easy thing. That's why it took many years (ignoring the ridiculous biblical story) to learn agriculture. It's not just "dropping seeds" and watching them grow. Sure, you may get a few plants that way, but to grow an entire field is much harder. It takes all the understanding that the crops need a certain amount of water, sun, care, etc. I'm sure that learning basic soil properties took at least a generation in themselves... Of course you can figure that out after a few years when the place you've been growing no longer supports your crops. |
Well, if you lived in a hunter/gatherer culture, dropping a bunch of gathered seeds would be a memorable event (in a bad way)... It would be an equivalent of a modern-day clerk filling out forms all day, then accidentally spilling coffe on all of them... You'd remember that event for a long time.
Of course the very first farmers wouldn't be very good at it! They'd be lucky to get anything to grow at all, but supposing even a little bit did grow, they could continue one and gradually improve their methods... "Hey, look... the plants grow better when it rains on them... I wonder if there was some way I can make them get rained on even when it is dry?" (After several dry seasons of uselessly praying to their gods, they invent irrigation instead. ^.^)
I still think it wouldn't be a difficult thing to figure out. The key discovery is that plants grow where seeds fall. Once they figure that out, its just a process of gradual improvement.
And the very first farmers don't have to start out with a 'field' at all... Suppose one of them decides "hm... I like this fruit" and combines it with the knowledge that when seeds of that fruit sit on the ground long enough, they turn into plants that grow that fruit. Then that person thinks "I'll just throw a bunch of the seeds right outside the back door, and soon, I can get this fruit much easier!" That's all it would take. Or perhaps they get into the habit of gathering wild olives, then eating them just outside their hut, spitting the seeds out on the ground there. Soon enough, olive trees start growing there. Being primitive, but not stupid, they put two and two together and figure out why the olive trees suddenly started growing there, and get ideas on how this could be useful. Heck, it may not have started with seeds at all... perhaps they started with the much simpler idea of moving their favorite plants more conveniently closer to home, and started the first 'farm' by transplantation...
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| yet Creationists claim that it's been around for nearly ALL of human history. |
I wonder how they define what agriculture is? I think I have learned a little through you that agriculture is more than just gardening or sowing and reaping seeds. So perhaps if you go on an exploration tour down history lane for when agriculture started, it would have to involve agricultural equipment? So perhaps that meant that they would have learned how to make equipment out of stone and metal and you would have to look for those items and date it accordingly? They would have started with the beginnings of irrigation, i.e. the Aflaj irrigation system that is still in use in Oman and some of the other Middle East countries. Apparently it is centuries old (article below claims 2700 years):
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199206/oman.s.unfailing.springs..htm
Last edited by deanhills on Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
| deanhills wrote: | ||
I wonder how they define what agriculture is? I think I have learned a little through you that agriculture is more than just gardening or sowing and reaping seeds. So perhaps if you go on an exploration tour down history lane for when agriculture started, it would have to involve agricultural equipment? So perhaps that meant that they would have learned how to make equipment out of iron and you would have to look for those items? They would have started with the beginnings of irrigation, i.e. the Aflaj irrigation system that is still in use in Oman and some of the other Middle East countries. Apparently it is centuries old (article below claims 2700 years): http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199206/oman.s.unfailing.springs..htm |
That's a pretty strict definition of agriculture...
I'd call it the purposeful growing of any plants or animals. If where you live happens to be fertile enough, just spreading some seeds might be all you need to have a nice little (primitive) farm.
Saying a primitive farm like that isn't agriculture would be like saying a hot-air balloon isn't an aircraft.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| That's a pretty strict definition of agriculture...
I'd call it the purposeful growing of any plants or animals. If where you live happens to be fertile enough, just spreading some seeds might be all you need to have a nice little (primitive) farm. Saying a primitive farm like that isn't agriculture would be like saying a hot-air balloon isn't an aircraft. |
I found the following definition of agriculture in Yahoo Education, and perhaps it does fit in with your most basic description:
| Quote: |
| The science, art, and business of cultivating soil, producing crops, and raising livestock; farming. |
If you're a biblical literalist, then the answer is really obvious -- Adam and Eve got really hungry out in the wilderness, and asked God to give them some food. God gave them some food and then told them how to grow some more. Duh!!!
(Cain was the farmer, he offered God his veggies, and God was like, WTF and Abel offered up his sheep and it was much tastier, Cain got jealous and killed Abel. Some say this is a metaphor for farming's triumph over herding... or something...)
If you're not a literalist, then you can accept anthropological explanations for agriculture, it's no big deal.
Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel is a really good book that talks about the development of agriculture. It's fascinating.
(Cain was the farmer, he offered God his veggies, and God was like, WTF and Abel offered up his sheep and it was much tastier, Cain got jealous and killed Abel. Some say this is a metaphor for farming's triumph over herding... or something...)
If you're not a literalist, then you can accept anthropological explanations for agriculture, it's no big deal.
Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel is a really good book that talks about the development of agriculture. It's fascinating.
| Libby wrote: |
| If you're a biblical literalist, then the answer is really obvious -- Adam and Eve got really hungry out in the wilderness, and asked God to give them some food. God gave them some food and then told them how to grow some more. Duh!!!
(Cain was the farmer, he offered God his veggies, and God was like, WTF and Abel offered up his sheep and it was much tastier, Cain got jealous and killed Abel. Some say this is a metaphor for farming's triumph over herding... or something...) If you're not a literalist, then you can accept anthropological explanations for agriculture, it's no big deal. Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel is a really good book that talks about the development of agriculture. It's fascinating. |
Looks as though the Bible is not giving much of a history on the development of agriculture. We probably need to look well beyond of that. Perhaps a nice thesis for a doctorate
| deanhills wrote: | ||
Looks as though the Bible is not giving much of a history on the development of agriculture. We probably need to look well beyond of that. Perhaps a nice thesis for a doctorate |
I wonder if it was developed separately in the American continents, or if the first humans to go there already had knowledge of it...
The simple answer is:
a) If you are a biblical literalist then you are either a fool, a liar, or a very ignorant person, so who cares what you think?
b) Agriculture, as Afaceinthematrix said, can be dated fairly reliably to about 10,000 years ago. That is not to say that it couldn't have occurred before then in a small scale manner. We have pretty good evidence for agriculture in the middle-east (Mesapotamia) at this era, so we can be fairly certain that this represents a minimum time-scale.
a) If you are a biblical literalist then you are either a fool, a liar, or a very ignorant person, so who cares what you think?
b) Agriculture, as Afaceinthematrix said, can be dated fairly reliably to about 10,000 years ago. That is not to say that it couldn't have occurred before then in a small scale manner. We have pretty good evidence for agriculture in the middle-east (Mesapotamia) at this era, so we can be fairly certain that this represents a minimum time-scale.
Related topics
 |