I have been watching news about the attack on Hamas on the TV from both sides and of course it is difficult to judge the issue and the human carnage is horrific to see.
Who is the most guilty here? Hamas who has been using Palistinian civilians as a human shield and cover behind which Hamas terrorists have been hiding for years and years and even using the civilians for some of their suicide missions? While there was supposed to be a cease fire with Israel, Hamas has been using the same Palistinian civilians to smuggle armaments into Gaza via Egypt to arm Hamas. Hamas has been firing missiles into Israel continuously, while both had committed to a cease fire treaty.
I see points on both sides, but then blame Hamas for hiding behind innocent people and pointing fingers at Israel, when most probably it had been provoking Israel to do what it finally did, retaliate, with full knowledge that it would come at the expense of the civilians they have been hiding behind, using the civilians as a human shield. What better way is there to rally the Arab world behind it in its offensive against Israel than to give them full and horrific detailed coverage of the bloodshed?
In the meanwhile, what a sad situation for lack of medical supplies and facilities for the injured. Imagine the cost of the armaments that had been smuggled in versus insufficient medical supplies, when Hamas, I am sure, KNEW something like this would be coming down. In all eventuality they were probably planning on all the fundraising and the world sending supplies and contributions, when most likely it would be too late for those who could have been saved if some of the money for armaments had been invested for medical supplies for its own people instead.
The west should draw one line and stop israel.
They act like the own the region and they kill many innocent people with their attacks. not allowing journalists in the area is just mad.
| joomla wrote: |
They act like the own the region and they kill many innocent people with their attacks. |
You know... That could very accurately describe both sides.
But please, don't attack from behind civilians and then blame your enemy for the civilian deaths.
By doing so, you force your enemy to kill civilians. Israel is not killing innocents by choice. (Unlike some people are...)Cant say whats happening there.
On one side there is hamas declaring that it wont renew cease-fire an breaks cease-fire two days before actual ending by firing rockets..
and on other side there is Israel which dont even recognize the democratically elected part of hamas, attacks civilian targets and to raise suspiction to highest level, dont even allows press and media to enter Gaza.
The liberal media doesn't report the effects of the Hamas rockets landing in Isreal, so it's hard to have any sympathy when they whine about not getting into Gaza.
It somewhat amazes me that Israel really thinks this is solving the situation. You would think they would have learned by now that they're simply fueling more anger and hatred (and in effect, more attacks) from the Arab world in general, particularly Hamas.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| joomla wrote: |
They act like the own the region and they kill many innocent people with their attacks. |
You know... That could very accurately describe both sides.
But please, don't attack from behind civilians and then blame your enemy for the civilian deaths.
By doing so, you force your enemy to kill civilians. Israel is not killing innocents by choice. (Unlike some people are...) |
Neither side cares about their opposition's civilians...let's get that out right now. And I don't expect them to. It's a war. But neither side is in any way innocent right now. There is no side to take in this fight...if you take a side, you're supporting "terrorism" either way.
And unfortunately I have to oppose the US in this instance as well, considering they're (well, my tax dollars) funding just about everything Israel has the capability to do.
| jwellsy wrote: |
| The liberal media doesn't report the effects of the Hamas rockets landing in Isreal, so it's hard to have any sympathy when they whine about not getting into Gaza. |
Maybe 400 deaths and thousands injured is a bit more in need of discussion than the deaths of, what is it now, five or six Israelis (not that either is less important...one death is too many)? Israel is surrounded by countries and political and religious groups many of which have said that they can not accept any other outcome other than the annihilation of Israel.
It does not surprise me that Israel reacts strongly to any threat or attack on it's people.
If all your neighbors expressed a desire to kill you, you would also react pretty strongly when you thought they were trying to accomplish that wish.
Palestinians seem to get most of the sympathy these days and yet their leaders have failed to make any concessions whenever peace talks seem to be progressing therefore perpetuating the situation at the expense of the people.
Until they can accept that Israel has a right to exist there will be no possibility of negotiating peace.
Neither side gives "concessions." They both (and including Egypt) carry out "terrorist" actions. Neither is innocent, neither should be respected, neither should be funded by western nations (as Israel very much is), neither is excused for their actions. The good guys in this are the civilians; the bad guys are both Israel (and Egypt at the moment) and Hamas. There is no side to take except the side of the civilians.
The vote that established Israel is a prime example of how flawed the international system is. When you have every nation in a region opposing the insertion of a specific nation, you don't slap that nation in the middle of that opposition and expect good things to arise. The vast majority of nations that voted in favor of establishing Israel are hardly effected in any way by any turmoil that goes on in the Middle East. You have 13 votes from Middle Eastern nations showing their opposition and random votes from the likes of Panama, Haiti, Iceland, etc. somehow carry weight in a decision of this importance. The problem was created, and it was created out of stupidity, ignorance, and sympathy.
It's correct, there won't be peace there until Israel is no longer present. In principle, the land should be given up by both sides and put in the hands of a third party (unfortunately, this requires concessions from both sides as well as a neutral 3rd party...not going to work in practice).
I'm sick and tired of this stupid crap about how this land is holy and belongs to [insert religious group] because a voice in my head said so. It's ridiculous and it's been going on for century upon century. Frankly, I'm sick of it...and how ironic it all stems from religion.
| liljp617 wrote: |
Neither side cares about their opposition's civilians...let's get that out right now. |
At least one side cares about its own civilians. The other side displays a disregard for all civilian life.
| Quote: |
| And I don't expect them to. It's a war. |
I expect them to. That's one reason civilized countries have things like the Geneva conventions.
Look at the example set by the US in Iraq. Despite media coverage of civilian casualties (most of which are caused by the terrorists anyway), extensive care has been taken to avoid civilian casualties, even to the point of reducing the effectiveness (and greatly increasing the cost) of the war effort. | liljp617 wrote: |
| I'm sick and tired of this stupid crap about how this land is holy and belongs to [insert religious group] because a voice in my head said so. It's ridiculous and it's been going on for century upon century. Frankly, I'm sick of it...and how ironic it all stems from religion. |
I've read it twice tonight. The "church persecuted Galileo". And now "war in Gaza stems from religion". How can something dead, or an idea be responsible for war, killing people or persecuting a person? It is people killing people. Using either religion or doing it in the name of the church, Government or State.
Think any person in Israel would dispute its presence in the Middle East as only dating from 1948. The killing is pretty horrible, but from how I see it, Hamas seems to be more comfortable with justifying death as a sacred sacrifice, than Israelis. Hamas is hiding behind a human shield. Using civilians as a very tight cover with very logical results. | liljp617 wrote: |
| .......They both (and including Egypt) carry out "terrorist" actions. Neither is innocent, neither should be respected, neither should be funded by western nations (as Israel very much is), neither is excused for their actions..... |
Since neither can be excused for their actions, let not a single country support them in their actions.
If the Hamas is strongly funded by the Arab countries, then how can one expect Israel to be left behind in getting support from the West?
When all its neighbouring countries are against Israel's very existence, how can one say that both sides are being equally condemned for their actions?
It does need a stronger power to attempt to bring peace and stability in the region. | prithvi wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | .......They both (and including Egypt) carry out "terrorist" actions. Neither is innocent, neither should be respected, neither should be funded by western nations (as Israel very much is), neither is excused for their actions..... |
Since neither can be excused for their actions, let not a single country support them in their actions.
If the Hamas is strongly funded by the Arab countries, then how can one expect Israel to be left behind in getting support from the West?
When all its neighbouring countries are against Israel's very existence, how can one say that both sides are being equally condemned for their actions?
It does need a stronger power to attempt to bring peace and stability in the region. |
I didn't say they should.Haha, where is the guy who says "They are using unproportionate force, this is unacceptable."
Both sides are to blame and neither is innocent. But I am pretty disgusted with the way Isreal decides to react and the way the USA's future president is not saying anything about it.
| deanhills wrote: |
I have been watching news about the attack on Hamas on the TV from both sides and of course it is difficult to judge the issue and the human carnage is horrific to see.
|
Peace.
At the moment, the issue seems to be that Israel is attacking Palestine, killing many, because Israel wants Palestine to stop firing rockets. It is quite a disproportiante reaction. While Palestinian rockets kill a few Israelis, Israel's attacks are far more potent. Many Hundreds, many civilians including women and children, have been killed in the last few days. That along with the blockade of nearly all aid, which includes medicines and foods, is close to starving the Palestinians.
I don't see the justification. Where is the justice in exchanging the lives of hundreds, and putting thousands into suffering, for the lives of a few?
Palestine has been accused of breaching the ceasefire, but Arabs have accused Israel of the same thing. They're both guilty probably. | loyal wrote: |
....
At the moment, the issue seems to be that Israel is attacking Palestine, killing many, because Israel wants Palestine to stop firing rockets. It is quite a disproportiante reaction. While Palestinian rockets kill a few Israelis, Israel's attacks are far more potent. Many Hundreds, many civilians including women and children, have been killed in the last few days. That along with the blockade of nearly all aid, which includes medicines and foods, is close to starving the Palestinians.
.....
|
Does that in any way justify the firing of rockets by Palestine, when there was already a ceasefire in place?
It seems that you and I and most people on this forum know very well the amount of casualties that might result out of any such provocation. But Palestine fails to see this.
It is a very sorry situation for the civilians in Palestine that the Hamas does not care for their lives at all.
It is not that Palestine would never have had anticipated such a response from Israel...............and yet they chose to breach the ceasefire, firing from behind the barricade of innocent civilians and public property. | loyal wrote: |
I don't see the justification. Where is the justice in exchanging the lives of hundreds, and putting thousands into suffering, for the lives of a few?
|
When your enemy will accept nothing less than your death, then you must either fight by any means possible or commit what amounts to suicide. Hamas leaves Israel with no other options. | ocalhoun wrote: |
Hamas leaves Israel with no other options. |
Actually there is another option which is much more humane and would surely distinguish Israel from Hamas.
Instead ofbombing the whole Gaza strip, Israel could specifically target places from where rockets are being launched. Or it can send its army to specifically target militants instead of blanket bombing the whole city. | hunnyhiteshseth wrote: |
Actually there is another option which is much more humane and would surely distinguish Israel from Hamas.
Instead ofbombing the whole Gaza strip, Israel could specifically target places from where rockets are being launched. Or it can send its army to specifically target militants instead of blanket bombing the whole city. |
Hamas is hiding directly behind the civilians in the Gaza strip, i.e. living AMONGST the Civilians and with them. There is no target clearly distinguishable as only military. Ocalhoun totally put the finger on the hub. | hunnyhiteshseth wrote: |
| Israel could specifically target places from where rockets are being launched. |
And by the time Israeli bombs get to the point the rocket was launched from, the launchers are long gone, and women and children are there instead. | deanhills wrote: |
| hunnyhiteshseth wrote: | Actually there is another option which is much more humane and would surely distinguish Israel from Hamas.
Instead ofbombing the whole Gaza strip, Israel could specifically target places from where rockets are being launched. Or it can send its army to specifically target militants instead of blanket bombing the whole city. |
Hamas is hiding directly behind the civilians in the Gaza strip, i.e. living AMONGST the Civilians and with them. There is no target clearly distinguishable as only military. Ocalhoun totally put the finger on the hub. |
Do you mean to say that all the civilians there are part of military?
| Quote: |
And by the time Israeli bombs get to the point the rocket was launched from, the launchers are long gone, and women and children are there instead.
|
I think range of rockets is only few KM. So, if they are firing rockets into Israel, terrorists must be near border. In that case i dont see any need to bomb the whole city.
And going by your premise that militants are gone and children are there, i dont think thats a sufficient reason to bomb those children. If you know they are gone by your bombs reach them just dont bomb there!!
See, every country has rights to protect its territories, so if Israel feels it is been attacked it has every right to respond but in proportion to offensive against it and for humanity/god sake not bomb civilians.This is an old argument and can be framed simplistically, but fairly accurately, in a simple analogy.
A criminal has several hostages. Is it justified to fire at the criminal knowing that there is a very high likelihood that the shot(s) will also kill one or more hostages?
Most police forces say no. They would not fire unless there was a very high probability of NOT hitting a hostage.
Most military forces, on the other hand, say it depends - they do a cost-benefit analysis and arrive at an 'acceptable collateral damage' figure.
@the previous two posters - what if the criminal is firing rockets at schools, hospitals, and homes every single day, giving Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder to 94% of the children in a city? What if the criminal fires 2,284 rockets and mortars in six months? What if the criminal agrees to a truce, but fires 362 more missles while the other side has committed to peace? What if the criminal is given humanitarian aid each day, even though he bombs the very trucks carrying the aid?
(I have sources for this data, by the way. Ask if you want to see them.)
Just think about it, will you?
Well, my analysis remains the same.
The justification for the action (at least the one sold to the Israeli population) is that the action will result in a cessation of rocket attacks. It won't - this is apparent to anyone with half a brain. Similar justifications for similar actions have been used throughout history (both in the middle-east and wider afield). It is a nonsense. Each innocent Palestinian killed by the current action leaves brothers, children, parents and other relatives who are far more likely to want to fire a rocket into Israel than before.
The proof will be in the coming months and years...we will see.
PS - yes, I would like to see the sources for your figures.
| Bikerman wrote: |
Well, my analysis remains the same.
The justification for the action (at least the one sold to the Israeli population) is that the action will result in a cessation of rocket attacks. It won't - this is apparent to anyone with half a brain. Similar justifications for similar actions have been used throughout history (both in the middle-east and wider afield). It is a nonsense. Each innocent Palestinian killed by the current action leaves brothers, children, parents and other relatives who are far more likely to want to fire a rocket into Israel than before.
The proof will be in the coming months and years...we will see.
PS - yes, I would like to see the sources for your figures. |
I listened to several commentaries last night on BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox (cannot remember with whom as there seem to be so many experts everywhere). Brought one of those insights to me along light bulb lines. Israel fully realizes that its rocket attacks will not result in a cessation of rocket attacks from Hamas. It also fully accepts that it will have to sit down with Hamas again, and what Israel is doing right now is to ensure the strongest position possible when it gets to the round table stage again. It deliberately picked the timing for that as well. Over New Year's when all the decision makers are on holidays and Governments would be slow to get together to deliberate on this issue. That would give Israel strategically more time to get ahead. All of it was meticulously planned to the n'th degree. Not only on where they want to be on their own, but where they are going to end up when the big delegations start to visit them again. | Bikerman wrote: |
Most police forces say no. They would not fire unless there was a very high probability of NOT hitting a hostage.
Most military forces, on the other hand, say it depends - they do a cost-benefit analysis and arrive at an 'acceptable collateral damage' figure. |
That's the difference between peacetime and wartime.
Personally, I wouldn't blame them for going scorched-earth and completely clearing the whole area. (After warning civilians to evacuate...)
Only one side in this conflict can easily and quickly end all civilian casualties, but unfortunately, that side doesn't value the civilian lives of either side. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| Only one side in this conflict can easily and quickly end all civilian casualties, but unfortunately, that side doesn't value the civilian lives of either side. |
That is the sad part about it. Last night heard one of the "commentators" on the Israeli side saying that this is Israel's way of securing peace for Gaza. How he argues this out is that Hamas obviously does not want peace given its continuous firing of missiles when a peace treaty was in place, so by persuading Hamas forcefully to stop smuggling weapons into Gaza and stop firing missiles into Israel, Israel is pursuing peace, as once the latter was secured, there would be peace in Gaza! | sondosia wrote: |
@the previous two posters - what if the criminal is firing rockets at schools, hospitals, and homes every single day,
|
Do you mean Hamas firing rockets at schools & hospitals or Israel bombing schools & hospitals? 
| Quote: |
giving Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder to 94% of the children in a city?
|
I seriously doubt that figure. A source would be great. But anyway, i guess killing children of another city for your city ones "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder" is a little overreaction.
| Quote: |
What if the criminal fires 2,284 rockets and mortars in six months? What if the criminal agrees to a truce, but fires 362 more missles while the other side has committed to peace?
|
What if criminal kills 6 civilians and security guard kills 370 civilians in response to that without even hitting one criminal?
| Quote: |
What if the criminal is given humanitarian aid each day, even though he bombs the very trucks carrying the aid?
|
Then you are being plain stupid. Instead of giving aid to criminals give it to civilians!!
By the way, i guess you know that Israel has blocked all humanitarian aid into Gaza. | hunnyhiteshseth wrote: |
| By the way, i guess you know that Israel has blocked all humanitarian aid into Gaza. |
There are conflicting reports about this Hunnyhiteshseth. This was posted by Globalstrategy today in the Politics forum:
| Quote: |
| To see something positive in the bleak picture of the current armed conflict, it can be addressed the renewal of the humanitarian aid through the Israeli channels.Through the Kerem Shalom Crossing, approximately eighty truckloads of medical supplies and basic commodities are being delivered.The IDF (Israel Defense Forces) military operations have diminished the dangers to the civilian personnel manning depots and other infrastructure, and are allowing now for the pumping of some 200,000 liters of heavy diesel fuel through the Nahal Oz terminal. This will allow a reasonable functioning of the Gaza power station and also allow for other humanitarian needs. Since the military campaing began some four hundred trucks of humanitarian aid was transported. Dual citizens who wanted to leave were assisted to do it and many Palestinians, including injured children, were evacuated to Israel for medical assistance. |
I checked up on the Internet, but could not find any corroborating news stories for this, but I am sure Globalstrategy must have taken it from a good source. I heard about it on the commentaries on TV, i.e. that supplies have got through and are being stored in warehouses in Gaza, but that families are too petrified to leave their homes to get to the supplies (obviously for good reason). | deanhills wrote: |
| Quote: | | To see something positive in the bleak picture of the current armed conflict, it can be addressed the renewal of the humanitarian aid through the Israeli channels.Through the Kerem Shalom Crossing, approximately eighty truckloads of medical supplies and basic commodities are being delivered.The IDF (Israel Defense Forces) military operations have diminished the dangers to the civilian personnel manning depots and other infrastructure, and are allowing now for the pumping of some 200,000 liters of heavy diesel fuel through the Nahal Oz terminal. This will allow a reasonable functioning of the Gaza power station and also allow for other humanitarian needs. Since the military campaing began some four hundred trucks of humanitarian aid was transported. Dual citizens who wanted to leave were assisted to do it and many Palestinians, including injured children, were evacuated to Israel for medical assistance. |
I checked up on the Internet, but could not find any corroborating news stories for this, but I am sure Globalstrategy must have taken it from a good source. I heard about it on the commentaries on TV, i.e. that supplies have got through and are being stored in warehouses in Gaza, but that families are too petrified to leave their homes to get to the supplies (obviously for good reason). |
If thats true, then i guess thats a positive development and that humanity is not fully dead in Israel.
Well even i tried to check on from where that has been quoted. Most of the time google does bring up the link from where that has been quoted. But this time i only got just one result -- that was of frihost itself!
http://www.google.co.in/search?q=%22To+see+something+positive+in+the+bleak+picture+of+the+current+armed+conflict%2C+it+can+be+addressed+the+renewal+of+the+humanitarian+aid+through+the+Israeli+channels.%22&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B5GGGL_enIN293IN298
It just mean that either source is not well known, atleast not enough t warrant a visit by google bot , or the quote has been edited before pasting here.
My information that aid is not being allowed was based on BBC & CNN and they stil are saying that no press or aid is being allowed.
But i sincerely hope, that it is being allowed and is reaching the right people.Israel and Hamas take a joke with the Palestinian people's lives.Extreme Islamic forces can not achieve their purpose.They should be responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people.
There was some discussion about my statement that Israel allowed for help through the Keren Shalom border cross, a more thorough search through Internet would have brought the results, although there was also abundant information in the written press, in different languages. Just as an example:
| Quote: |
| Last week Israel opened the Keren Shalom border crossing into Gaza to allow more than 100 trucks filled with humanitarian aid to enter. The biggest danger to the continued provision of humanitarian supplies comes from Hamas and its terrorist partners who have attempted to carry out at least 17 attacks on border crossings in the past year. The most constructive thing the United States and the international community can do right now is to put pressure on Hamas to halt rocket fire into Israel; to stop using mosques, hospitals and densely populated neighborhoods as hiding places for its "soldiers"; and to refrain from launching further attacks on border crossings. In an effort to minimize civilian casualties, the Israeli military has put its own soldiers at greater risk: It has made telephone calls and dropped leaflets urging civilians to evacuate private homes that served as Hamas military command centers (a point the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, which is not terribly friendly to Israel, has acknowledged). |
Source: http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/05/the-gaza-cease-fire-fraud/ | Quote: |
Reports say Hamas takes a cut out of all aid that arrives, including flour and medicine. Supplies intended to be distributed without gain among the population is seized by the group and sold to the residents, at a profit to the Hamas government.
One such incident was recorded Monday, when a convoy of trucks carrying supplies through the Kerem Shalom crossing was opened fire upon and seized by Hamas gunmen. Similar incidents occurred with trucks carrying fuel.
In other cases, civilians are simply used as cannon fodder or human shields. Reports out of Gaza say residents who attempted to flee their homes in the northern area of the Strip were forced to go back at gunpoint, by Hamas men.
The organization is presumably interested in increasing civilian casualties in order to give rise to international pressure against Israel. Arab media reported that in an IDF strike on a UN school 30 civilians were killed, but there is no legitimate way to prove gunmen were among those killed as Hamas tends to bury these bodies quickly, thus eliminating evidence in Israel's favor.
Other civilian complaints state that Hamas gunmen pull children along with them "by the ears" from place to place, fearing that if they don't have a child with them they will be fair game to the IDF. Others hide in civilian homes and stairwells, UNRWA ambulances, and mosques.
In other reported cases Hamas gunmen hold civilians hostage in alleyways in order to provide themselves with a living barricade to ward off IDF forces. Reports somewhat more difficult to verify say the group's men shot Fatah operatives in the feet to make sure the latter would not attempt a coup. |
Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3651783,00.html
I got by email a video showing a Palestinian terrorist "carrying" a child for protection, but I don't know how to show it in the forum, I guess I cannot do it.http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-44442.html
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and GLOBALSTRATEGY: please use proper quoting next time and add some text of your own (like an opinion or something).
And don't double-post, use the edit button instead.
