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Possibility of War between India & Pakistan





ganesh
I came across this article in Pakistan Daily:

http://www.daily.pk/local/other-local/8706-india-threatens-pakistan-with-deadline-for-war.html

In short, it states that December 26, 2008 is the deadline given by India for Pakistan to take action on the militant outfits operating from within its borders. After that, India could take military action.

What do fellow Frihosters think? Is a war between India and Pakistan a very real possibility?

What is the opinion regarding the support of terrorists by Pakistan? Is Pakistan really to blame, or is it being made a scapegoat? If it is the latter, who are the people abetting the terrorists?
OpposableThumbs
Well, I don't see Pakistan as a victim. They have sold nuclear weapons secrets to the world:
Nuclear investigators from the United States and other nations now believe that the black market network run by the Pakistani scientist A. Q. Khan was selling not only technology for enriching nuclear fuel and blueprints for nuclear weapons, but also some of the darkest of the bomb makers' arts: the hard-to-master engineering secrets needed to fabricate nuclear warheads.
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0305/63.html
prithvi
A war between India and Pakistan will hurt both sides, and especially during these times of economic crunch.

However, what needs to be done is the immediate closure or destruction of terrorist camps in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK).
It would be useless to assume that Pakistan will take action against them.

In the past, during similar assurances by Pakistan of banning terrorist outfits, the latter simply resurfaced under a different name and resumed their activities with more vigour.
Even after the recent incident, Pakistan had officially put some blacklisted terrorist leaders under 'house arrest', but they were found roaming out freely during Bakri Id.

The problem is that even after giving all possible evidence to Pakistan, they will just not take any action, because the Pakistan Govt is a mere puppet of the religious extremist groups in Pakistan.
Even as the Pak Govt. disowns responsibility for terror attacks, it is helpless against taking any action against terror camps originating from their soil.

Till such time, terrorists from these groups will continue attacking not only India, but the world at large.
deanhills
ganesh wrote:
What do fellow Frihosters think? Is a war between India and Pakistan a very real possibility?


It could become a self-fulfilling prophecy if people in the media continue to harp on it? But I do not believe that is what the Governments of India or Pakistan want or need. India's economy, before the great global crisis started, was one of the most thriving in the world. The messages I received from Singh via the media are that of not wishing to enter into war with Pakistan, and of course Pakistan does not want any of that for itself as well. It is obvious that the Mumbia terrorists had something like this in mind, and perhaps their only success so far has been rumour mongering everywhere, and hopefully it will stay at that.

I feel really comforted by the fact that we have the US in a very strong, up close and personal presence in Afghanistan, as well as in a very strong, up close and personal liaison with the Pakistan Government. I doubt there will be war. If anything should escalate though, it could be the kind of terrorism we saw in Mumbai, and hopefully they will not create another "artificial" incidence like the one in Mumbai to further tension between Pakistan and India. Think they call it casus belli, war mongering (refer Wikipedia quote below).

Quote:
Casus belli (/'keɪsəs 'bɛllaɪ/ (American English), /ka'zus 'bɛlli/ (Italian/Latin)) is a Latin expression meaning the justification for acts of war.
ocalhoun
OpposableThumbs wrote:
the Pakistani scientist A. Q. Khan was selling

The scientist, not Pakistan...
And this is hardly unique to Pakistan anyway, I recall an incident of a famous US nuclear scientist doing just about the exact same thing to the benefit of the Russians...
Nick2008
Well, tomorrow is December 26, so only time will tell.
hunnyhiteshseth
I think its just a clever ploy of Pakistan & Pakistani media to make this issue an "India-Pakistan" issue instead of terrorism issue. Pakistan just want to divert world's attention from trerrorism to war so that instead of presurrising Pakistan world start to negotiate peace and forget real issue.
harismushtaq
Up to now, India has not produced any solid evidence for the involvement of Pakistan in the mumbai attacks. The foolish way in which 10 terrorists kept fighting against thousand of security forces at four different location for one week is enough for the wise to understand the drama. Still, with out any positive investigation, the matter has been reduced to Pakistan being blamed for supporting terrorism,threats and turning it to a reason for invading Pakistan.

When few years ago, 2000 muslims were slaughtered by hindu extreemists in state of Gujrat, India, there was no worry in the world and no one referred it as terrorism where as it was a bigger incident in terms of loss of innocent lives.

Again, if war is there, there will be loss of hundreds and thousands of innocent civilian lives as well as economy of already stricken and poor Pakistan as well as improving but not strong enough India. I wonder when there will be wise people in government who think humanly for the peace and betterment of thier people and people all over the world.
prithvi
harismushtaq wrote:
Up to now, India has not produced any solid evidence for the involvement of Pakistan in the mumbai attacks. The foolish way in which 10 terrorists kept fighting against thousand of security forces at four different location for one week is enough for the wise to understand the drama. Still, with out any positive investigation, the matter has been reduced to Pakistan being blamed for supporting terrorism,threats and turning it to a reason for invading Pakistan.

When few years ago, 2000 muslims were slaughtered by hindu extreemists in state of Gujrat, India, there was no worry in the world and no one referred it as terrorism where as it was a bigger incident in terms of loss of innocent lives.

Again, if war is there, there will be loss of hundreds and thousands of innocent civilian lives as well as economy of already stricken and poor Pakistan as well as improving but not strong enough India. I wonder when there will be wise people in government who think humanly for the peace and betterment of thier people and people all over the world.


What evidence does Pakistan want to act against the terrorist camps breeding in PoK?
We had the Mumbai blasts, the train blasts, Jaipur blasts and many more.
Remember that it is just because it is India that Pakistan has not got any fitting reply so far.

Whenever India gave a list of most-wanted terrorists to Pakistan, the latter never responded, citing 'lack of evidence'. So much for being our 'friendly' neighbour Laughing

Please do not cite incidents of riots as a justification for Pakistan's stand to terrorist activities in Indian cities.......... internal issues in any country do not justify terrorist activities promoted by an enemy country.
Does India ever question the Shia-Sunni riots that happen frequently in Pakistan? or the Karachi riots? or how Benazir Bhutto was killed?

Till Pakistan takes a strong stand against the terrorist camps operating inside it, there is no reason to keep normal ties with that country. 'Friendship' should not be one-sided.

If you are talking about evidence, so far Pakistan has only given evidence of its enmity towards India.
deanhills
harismushtaq wrote:
Up to now, India has not produced any solid evidence for the involvement of Pakistan in the mumbai attacks. The foolish way in which 10 terrorists kept fighting against thousand of security forces at four different location for one week is enough for the wise to understand the drama. Still, with out any positive investigation, the matter has been reduced to Pakistan being blamed for supporting terrorism,threats and turning it to a reason for invading Pakistan.

When few years ago, 2000 muslims were slaughtered by hindu extreemists in state of Gujrat, India, there was no worry in the world and no one referred it as terrorism where as it was a bigger incident in terms of loss of innocent lives.

Again, if war is there, there will be loss of hundreds and thousands of innocent civilian lives as well as economy of already stricken and poor Pakistan as well as improving but not strong enough India. I wonder when there will be wise people in government who think humanly for the peace and betterment of thier people and people all over the world.


Looks as though Pakistan has been deploying troops around the Indian borders, not the other way round. If India is the aggressor, why not the other way round? There was nothing foolish about the act of terrorism in Mumbai. It was a calculated, perfectly and masterfully planned death mission in which the terrorists went there fully knowing what the outcome would be, INCLUDING, setting India and Pakistan up against one another. Destablizing the environment. Pakistan seems to be playing in their hands?
hunnyhiteshseth
harismushtaq wrote:
Up to now, India has not produced any solid evidence for the involvement of Pakistan in the mumbai attacks. The foolish way in which 10 terrorists kept fighting against thousand of security forces at four different location for one week is enough for the wise to understand the drama. Still, with out any positive investigation, the matter has been reduced to Pakistan being blamed for supporting terrorism,threats and turning it to a reason for invading Pakistan.

When few years ago, 2000 muslims were slaughtered by hindu extreemists in state of Gujrat, India, there was no worry in the world and no one referred it as terrorism where as it was a bigger incident in terms of loss of innocent lives.

Again, if war is there, there will be loss of hundreds and thousands of innocent civilian lives as well as economy of already stricken and poor Pakistan as well as improving but not strong enough India. I wonder when there will be wise people in government who think humanly for the peace and betterment of thier people and people all over the world.


It would be great if you could give definition of evidence. The sole captured terrorist is saying he is pakistani, he even sought help from Pakistan High Commisioner. Observer traced the
Ajmal( captured terrorist)'s village and villagers did recognized him. Later, Pakistan's own television Geo TV showed Ajmal's father admitting that Ajmal is his son. eve Nawaj Sharif, ex-PM of Pakistan, has questioned why Ajmal's village was cordoned off?


Man if these are not enough evidences then what exactly does Pakistan? Instead of helping India & in a way themselves, Pakistan has gone into a denial mode.

Just last thing, when a pigeon sees a cat it closes its eyes and think cat is gone. But cat still capture it. I hope Pakistan doesn't suffer same fate.
Nick2008
India and Pakistan had always had some sort of "border drama". This is not the first time one of these countries decides to send more troops to the border. It happens a lot every year. I do not believe the Pakistani president gave permission for the terrorists to attack India? He probably didn't even know it was going to happen. These terrorists did most of the attack on their own behalf, but it wasn't Pakistan's fault that the terrorists were Pakistani. For example, they could have been from Afghanistan and then India and Afghanistan would start exchanging flames at each other. It's not like the Pakistani army walked into Mumbai. Yes, I agree Pakistan should increase it's awareness against terrorism, but you can't stop terrorism. Terrorists all have a belief, and it's hard to break a person's beliefs. So their actions shouldn't put a bad image on Pakistan.
prithvi
Nick2008 wrote:
.......
I do not believe the Pakistani president gave permission for the terrorists to attack India? He probably didn't even know it was going to happen. These terrorists did most of the attack on their own behalf, but it wasn't Pakistan's fault that the terrorists were Pakistani.........


Pakistan might not have been behind this incident, but it definitely encourages the development of terrorist camps that carry out these activities, not only in India but in different parts of the world.

The reason behind this is the helplessness of the Pakistani Government.
Unlike democratic countries in the world, the intelligence wing ISI of Pakistan and the Pakistan army have more unofficial power and work in collaboration with these terrorist camps. Not a single terrorist camp can receive funds and weapons without the involvement of the ISI.
With full knowledge of all this, the Pak Government cannot do a thing because the day it starts actually acting against these extremist groups, the latter will topple the Government.
Remember how Benazir Bhutto was killed?
flyfamilyguy
ganesh wrote:
What do fellow Frihosters think? Is a war between India and Pakistan a very real possibility?
hunnyhiteshseth
Nick2008 wrote:
India and Pakistan had always had some sort of "border drama". This is not the first time one of these countries decides to send more troops to the border.


Man thats the problem. That is the exact aim of Pakistani government, to make terrorism a India-Pakistan border dispute. India never even said it will attack Pakistan, Pakistan is just pushing up war rhetoric. I wont be too surprized if Pakistan really attacks India just to divert attention from this issue.

Quote:

It happens a lot every year.


No it doesnt. Infact both ountries are having a ceasefire for last 5years with exception of minor skirmishes at start of this year.

Quote:

I do not believe the Pakistani president gave permission for the terrorists to attack India? He probably didn't even know it was going to happen.


Even nobody in India beleives so. India categorically said, "elements in Pakistan.
By the way, who cares for Pakistan's President's permision. His permission doesnt matter. Infact time magzine list of most powerful persons has only one Pakistani and that is there Army Chief, Kiyani.

Quote:

These terrorists did most of the attack on their own behalf, but it wasn't Pakistan's fault that the terrorists were Pakistani.


No, thats not true. These terrorists have full support of Pakistan's Intelligence Agency,ISI and Army. And to some extend the civilian government is also responsible for providing a haven to these terrorist. Infact, the terrorist leaders can be easily seen conducting mass rallies in Pakistan and even appear on TV giving interviews!!

Quote:

It's not like the Pakistani army walked into Mumbai.


My dear friend, thats why it is called a "proxy war".
deanhills
Thanks for the last posting hunnyhiteshseth. Some good points were made and I learned more about Pakistan military as well. Where I am in the UAE I am surrounded by the peaceful variety of Pakistan, however have learned enough about Pakistan from the Pakistani people here to know that politically it is completely unstable and very easy to go off in any direction. Apparently there are less then half of expats left in Pakistan than there were a few years ago. Everyone has moved away as they were fearing something really bad to happen. I am really happy that the US is at close quarters there. I am sure they have their task cut out for them to figure out all the things that are going on in Pakistan. It can get very heated and very much out of control, in a million and one directions.
ganesh
It is good to see Frihosters having a fruitful discussion regarding this topic. It has enabled both sides to think and contemplate about what their favourite media outlet is spreading around, and to identify whether it is the whole story or just one side of it.

December 26th has already passed by, but the air seems far from clear:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gYCtJt8EKES6bQ9-RdbFE7J9x97Q

Countries all over the world, including the US, Russia, China and Iran are trying to make sure that tensions do not escalate. It is a wait and watch situation for now, I guess. Hopefully this issue gets resolved amicably once and for all in order that peace prevail in the region.
deanhills
ganesh wrote:
Countries all over the world, including the US, Russia, China and Iran are trying to make sure that tensions do not escalate. It is a wait and watch situation for now, I guess. Hopefully this issue gets resolved amicably once and for all in order that peace prevail in the region.


Ganesh, specifically what are Russia, China and Iran doing to make sure tensions do not escalate. I can accept with a pinch of salt Russia, but I see no sign of China and it is well known that Iran is actually training terrorists and has a link with Hamas. I can only see the United States and its Western allies doing everything they can. Perhaps there is news that we do not see here, so maybe you can fill us in on Russia, China and Iran and their contributions to make sure tensions do not escalate.
tamilparks
ya they are talking in tension only so there may not be any war so dont be afraid
hunnyhiteshseth
deanhills wrote:
Thanks for the last posting hunnyhiteshseth. Some good points were made and I learned more about Pakistan military as well. Where I am in the UAE I am surrounded by the peaceful variety of Pakistan, however have learned enough about Pakistan from the Pakistani people here to know that politically it is completely unstable and very easy to go off in any direction. Apparently there are less then half of expats left in Pakistan than there were a few years ago. Everyone has moved away as they were fearing something really bad to happen. I am really happy that the US is at close quarters there. I am sure they have their task cut out for them to figure out all the things that are going on in Pakistan. It can get very heated and very much out of control, in a million and one directions.


Thanks. I am glad I could get truth across to someone. Yeah, I guess whole of middle east would be having such a view.

About role of Russia, Iran & China:

Iran: Its only role is that historically it is a common friend of India & Pakistan. Additionally, Iran has 2nd largest gas reserves after Russia. So Iran can certainly pressurize Pakistan ,if it wants, in one way or other.

Russia: Russia had provided Intelligence inputs that confirmed that terrorists were really in contact with their bosses in Pakistan. It can surely play a role in UN and specifically in Security Council. However, it has limited leverage in Pakistan.

China: The only way in which China can help is by threatning India of action on India's eastern border.(sarcasm) China has long being supporting Pakistan. From supplying long range missiles to nuclear weapons, military aid to helping in securing Kashmir. Infact, Pakistan is increasingly nearing to China to send a signal to US that it may go out of US' influence if US put too much pressure on Pakistan.
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