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2012
What is really going to happen?
Nothing in the lines of the alternatives given.
Well.....
1) The year will come the same as the other thousands.
2) We don't know the future nor does it matter as you have absolutely zero control on the future
1) The year will come the same as the other thousands.
2) We don't know the future nor does it matter as you have absolutely zero control on the future
"Magic will return to man" - Did we ever had magic? :/
I say nothing will happen, I don't know why everyone get's so hyped up about this, it's just like every other world end prophecy - bullcrap.
I say nothing will happen, I don't know why everyone get's so hyped up about this, it's just like every other world end prophecy - bullcrap.
I doubt any of those three options given (especially No. 2) will occur.
I think this whole thing about 2012 started because that's when the Mayan calendar ends. Just because the calendar ends doesn't mean it's the end of the world.
I think this whole thing about 2012 started because that's when the Mayan calendar ends. Just because the calendar ends doesn't mean it's the end of the world.
the mayan calender doesn't even end. A new cycle just starts (5th if I am not mistaken). The mayans also didn't say it would end life, but it would end life as we know it. The mayans predicted a big change which would do a lot of bad at first, but would then give us the chance to start off clean again.
This could also mean the end of fossil fuels. At first there would be a lot of trouble because we rely on them, but if there really isn't any cheap fossil fuel we'll look for something new and have a new start.
I don't think anything is going to happen, but those doom scenarios aren't even what the mayans predicted. If you think any of those doom scenarios is real you're just throwing all kinds of stuff together that don't have anything to do with each other (some doom thinkers just needed a date for their theory).
This could also mean the end of fossil fuels. At first there would be a lot of trouble because we rely on them, but if there really isn't any cheap fossil fuel we'll look for something new and have a new start.
I don't think anything is going to happen, but those doom scenarios aren't even what the mayans predicted. If you think any of those doom scenarios is real you're just throwing all kinds of stuff together that don't have anything to do with each other (some doom thinkers just needed a date for their theory).
I think it isnt gonna change.
oh come on, its damn to fast to end. ive just enjoy mylife in 16 yrz
, 2012 mean im dead at 20 xO
oh come on, its damn to fast to end. ive just enjoy mylife in 16 yrz
, 2012 mean im dead at 20 xOIt's stupid to say just because they stopped making out calendars they had some world-ending prophecy.
If I asked you what day of the week October 12, 3012 would be and said you can't use a computer, you could certainly figure it out the calendar for 3012 by hand...but nobody in their right mind would. Does that mean October 12, 3012 is the end of the world? Hell no.
If I asked you what day of the week October 12, 3012 would be and said you can't use a computer, you could certainly figure it out the calendar for 3012 by hand...but nobody in their right mind would. Does that mean October 12, 3012 is the end of the world? Hell no.
Magic would be returned to man. LMAO!
Too much fantasy for you boy. XD
And perhaps, just perhaps, Magic has always been there. Read up about it, it's not lost yet.
Too much fantasy for you boy. XD
And perhaps, just perhaps, Magic has always been there. Read up about it, it's not lost yet.
I voted for "Magic will return to man." I want to shoot fire balls and lightening bolts at least once before I die.
Earths magnetic poles with shift.
I didn't chose any of the radio buttons. Because all of them are wrong. Nothing will happen... whoever made the calendar got lazy and stopped at 2012
And why should anything happen? A bunch of superstitious people made a calendar that ends in the year 2012. There are a lot of doomsayers around today. Do you believe them too? What makes the Mayans any different from them?
I'll probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe that biblically there's so much prophecy that needs to be fulfilled before the world is said to "end". There's going to be one world religion and one world government... And so much more. I see the start of these things, but I think it's going to take a lot longer than three years. I know, I know. Crazy bible thumper girl.
| jessicawalker wrote: |
| I'll probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe that biblically there's so much prophecy that needs to be fulfilled before the world is said to "end". There's going to be one world religion and one world government... And so much more. I see the start of these things, but I think it's going to take a lot longer than three years. I know, I know. Crazy bible thumper girl. |
End of the world prophecies? Sort of like some of these:
| Quote: |
| Failed prophecies:
About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details. About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details. About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment. 2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor. 365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't. 375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE. 500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year. 968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III. 992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event. 1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly. 1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist. 1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end. 1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE. 1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE. 1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets. 1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205. 1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded. 1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague. 1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year. 1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow. 1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail. 1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist. 1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year. 1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year. 1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement. 1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought Doomsday would be in this year. 1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN. 1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130: 14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:" 15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter." 16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face." 17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." 14 The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. 16 Smith is later recorded as having said: "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." 17 Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob. Note that his prophecy is ambiguous. It can be interpreted that: Jesus would return during 1890 (which did not materialize) or that 1890 would pass without Jesus' return (which did come to pass). Some anti-Mormon sources quote only verses 14 and 15, and draw the former conclusion -- that Smith's prophecy failed. 1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy. 1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called "The Great Disappointment," many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident. 1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesized that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' ...now time is almost finished...and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." 10 1856 or later: At Ellen White's last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. "By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure." 12 1891: Mother Shipton, a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: "...The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and eighty-one." 1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years -- i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182) 1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date. When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule. 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted. Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn't. The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year." 6 The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." 8 They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed. The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. 9 There is no way of knowing when this happened. More details on the WTS predictions. 1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17. 1936: Herbert W Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, predicted that the Day of the Lord would happen sometime in 1936. Nothing much happened that year, except for the birth of the compiler of this list -- who has been referred to as an Anti-Christ. When the prediction failed, he made a new estimate: 1975. 1940 or 1941: A Bible teacher from Australia, Leonard Sale-Harrison, held a series of prophesy conferences across North America in the 1930's. He predicted that the end of the world would happen in 1940 or 1941. 7 1948: During this year, the state of Israel was founded. Some Christians believed that this event was the final prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus. Various end of the world predictions were made in the range 1888 to 2048. 1953-AUG: David Davidson wrote a book titled "The Great Pyramid, Its Divine Message". In it, he predicted that the world would end in 1953-AUG. 1957-APR: The Watchtower magazine quoted 6 a pastor from California, Mihran Ask, as saying in 1957-JAN that "Sometime between April 16 and 23, 1957, Armageddon will sweep the world! Millions of persons will perish in its flames and the land will be scorched.' 1959: Florence Houteff's, who was the leader of the Branch Davidians faith group, prophesied that the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3 would end and the Kingdom of David would be established on 1959-APR-22. Followers expected to die, be resurrected, and transferred to Heaven. Many sold their possessions and moved to Mt. Carmel in anticipation of the "end time". It didn't happen. The group almost did not survive; only a few dozen members remained. Most Branch Davidians did die on 1993-APR-29 as a result of arson apparently ordered by their leader, David Koresh. They were not bodily resurrected -- on earth at least. 1960: Piazzi Smyth, a past astronomer royal of Scotland, wrote a book circa 1860 titled "Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid." It was responsible for spreading the belief in pyramidology throughout the world. This is the belief that secrets are hidden in the dimensions of the great pyramids. He concluded from his research that the millennium would start before the end of 1960 CE. 1967: During the six day war, the Israeli army captured all of Jerusalem. Many conservative Christians believed that the rapture would occur quickly. However, the final Biblical prerequisite for the second coming is that the Jews resume ritual animal sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem. That never happened. 1970's: The late Moses David (formerly David Berg) was the founder of the Christian religious group, The Children of God. He predicted that a comet would hit the earth, probably in the mid 1970's and destroy all life in the United States. One source indicated that he believed it would happen in 1973. 1972: According to an article in the Atlantic magazine, "Herbert W. Armstrong's empire suffered a serious blow when the end failed to begin in January of 1972, as Armstrong had predicted, thus bringing hardship to many people who had given most of their assets to the church in the expectation of going to Petra, where such worldly possessions would be useless." 3 According to an article in Wikipedia: "The failure of this prophetic scenario to take place according to this Co-Worker letter scenario, which was often repeated over the years in print by Armstrong, may have been one of the initial reasons why the church organization began to decline as unfulfilled expectations led to great disappointment. As events unfolded, it became obvious 1972 did not have the biblical significance that the church had anticipated for nearly two decades." 15 1974: Charles Meade, a pastor in Daleville, IN, predicted that the end of the world will happen during his lifetime. He was born circa 1927, so the end will probably come early in the 21st century. 1975: Many Jehovah's Witness predicted this date. However, it was not officially recognized by the leadership. 1978: Chuck Smith, Pastor of Calvary Chapel in Cost Mesa, CA, predicted the rapture in 1981. 1980: Leland Jensen leader of a Baha'i Faith group, predicted that a nuclear disaster would happen in 1980. This would be followed by two decades of conflict, ending in the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. 1981: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel taught an anti-Trinitarian belief about God, and Christian Identity. Back in the 1970's, he predicted that the Antichrist would appear before 1981. Rev. Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church predicted that the Kingdom of Heaven would be established this year. 1982: Pat Robertson predicted a few years in advance that the world would end in the fall of 1982. The failure of this prophecy did not seem to adversely affect his reputation. 1982: Astronomers John Gribben & Setphen Plagemann predicted the "Jupiter Effect" in 1974. They wrote that when various planets were aligned on the same side of the sun, tidal forces would create solar flares, radio interruptions, rainfall and temperature disturbances and massive earthquakes. The planets did align as seen from earth, as they do regularly. Nothing unusual happened. 1984 to 1999: In 1983, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, later called Osho, teacher of what has been called the Rajneesh movement, is said to have predicted massive destruction on earth, including natural disasters and man-made catastrophes. Floods larger than any since Noah, extreme earthquakes, very destructive volcano eruptions, nuclear wars etc. were to happen. Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Bombay will all disappear. Actually, the predictions were read out by his secretary; their legitimacy is doubtful. 1985: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on 1985-JUN 8-9 in "a valley of the Alaskan peninsula." 1986: Moses David of The Children of God faith group predicted that the Battle of Armageddon would take place in 1986. Russia would defeat Israel and the United States. A worldwide Communist dictatorship would be established. In 1993, Christ would return to earth. 1987 to 2000: Lester Sumrall, in his 1987 book "I Predict 2000 AD" predicted that Jerusalem would be the richest city on Earth, that the Common Market would rule Europe, and that there would be a nuclear war involving Russia and perhaps the U.S. Also, he prophesized that the greatest Christian revival in the history of the church would happen: all during the last 13 years of the 20th century. All of the predictions failed. 1988: Hal Lindsey had predicted in his book "The Late, Great Planet Earth" that the Rapture was coming in 1988 - one generation or 40 years after the creation of the state of Israel. This failed prophecy did not appear to damage his reputation. He continues to write books of prophecy which sell very well indeed. Alfred Schmielewsky, a psychic whose stage name was "super-psychic A.S. Narayana," predicted in 1986 that the world's greatest natural disaster would hit Montreal in 1988. Sadly, his psychic abilities failed him on 1999-APR-11 when he answered the door of his home only to be shot dead by a gunman. 1988-MAY: A 1981 movie titled "The man who saw tomorrow" described some of Nostradamus predictions. Massive earthquakes were predicted for San Francisco and Los Angeles. 1988-OCT-11: Edgar Whisenaut, a NASA scientist, had published the book "88 Reasons why the Rapture will Occur in 1988." It sold over 4 million copies. About 1990: Peter Ruckman concluded from his analysis of the Bible that the rapture would come within a few years of 1990. |
http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm
Granted many of those were just by some dellusional men living hundredS of years after Jesus of Nazareth, but I still find it interesting that Jesus of Nazereth himself said, "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." The Bible just doesn't seem to have a very good track record for these kinds of "prophecies."
More evidence can be seen by looking at the prophecies made in the Old Testament that also failed. Some of the prophecies are just silly (like God telling someone - I can't remember who because I haven't read the Bible since I was a Christian years ago that he'd have as many children as there are stars - 7 x 10^22 stars in the visible universe). Instead of me pulling out my old Bible and actually trying to go through it, I'll just do a little research from other websites.
| Quote: |
| Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.
Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 1020 Jewish people. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Christians say that this verse is a prophecy of Jesus' birth to a virgin. There are a couple problems with this prophecy...First, virgin in this verse is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah", which actually means "young woman". A young woman is not necessarily a virgin. "Bethulah" would have been the correct word to use if the author meant virgin. Second, nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus referred to as Immanuel. Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap. Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up. The river mentioned here is the Nile. The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource. Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct. Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today. Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for forty years. Amos 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. Many times, Jews have been pulled up out of their land. The ownership of their land is still being fought for. Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Nineveh was never overthrown. Why? Because God changed his mind in verse 3:10, despite what Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 and Ezekiel 24:14 says about God never changing his mind. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. Christians say that this prophecy is was fulfilled when Judas received 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. Matthew 27:9 recites this verse, but incorrectly credits Jeremiah with the prophecy. Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Again, Jesus is never referred to as Emmanuel (Immanuel). Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled? Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? There is no passage in the Old Testament that can be attributed to what Jesus is saying here. Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended. That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither has all those signs been fulfilled. Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value. This prophecy was never spoken by Jeremiah. Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Jesus tells the high priest that he would see his second coming. The high priest is long dead, and Jesus hasn't returned yet. Throughout the New Testament, the end of the world is prophesied as being very near, at hand, to be witnessed by those living at the time. Paul often told the people he preached to that they would be witnesses to Jesus' second coming. They are all long gone. |
Source: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T2S0UPQNRC3OU1QJ3
| jessicawalker wrote: |
| I'll probably get a lot of crap for this... |
No... I'm not going to give you crap for this; I'm just going to calmly point out the logical fallacies of believing in Biblical "prophecies" and show you that they have a very poor track record.
By the way, "There's going to be one world religion and one world government...?" I'd say that the Romans were much closer to one government than we are and I think one world religion is just nonsensical. Islam is the fastest growing religion, so by the time the "rapture" came, I would think that there would be very few Christians left to even go up to Heaven. Wouldn't your God want to save as many of you as possible, which would mean having the end times come while Christianity was still dominate? I think the whole thing logically falls apart when you take into account that atheism and non-religion is on the rise. How can we move towards one world religion when so many people are giving up religion? Hell, I was raised in a very religious family (along with many of my friends) and we've all moved towards atheism independently of each other.
| Xanatos wrote: |
| And why should anything happen? A bunch of superstitious people made a calendar that ends in the year 2012. There are a lot of doomsayers around today. Do you believe them too? What makes the Mayans any different from them? |
Maybe the Mayans were smarter... I don't know. Maybe people believe the Mayans because of that crappy book The Bible code (which has already been debunked; you can find "predictions" in many books the size of the Bible - it was done in Moby Dick).
I honestly do not think people actually believe in it... they just go along with it because it's fun to joke about.
First and foremost, here's a few scriptural replies to all of the non-biblical references to prophecy you made:
Here's something I found interesting, pertaining to biblical prophecy. Thought it might be worth a look:
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml[url]
A bit irrelevant, but I find this Nostradamus site interesting and somewhat informative.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nostradamus.htm
The truth of the matter is that there are so many old testament prophecies that were so specific that have come to pass. You can deny it, you can skew it and try to circle around it, but it's there and it's true. And I do mean BIBLICAL prophecy, not random people spewing prophecy in the name of Christ. Joseph Smith? COME ON.
| Quote: |
| They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the LORD. (Jer 23:16b) "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, 'I had a dream, I had a dream!' (Jer 23:25) Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.... (Matthew 7:15,16) "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many." (Matthew 24:11) ..For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. (Mark 13:22) |
Here's something I found interesting, pertaining to biblical prophecy. Thought it might be worth a look:
| Quote: |
| Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)! God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance. The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error. As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10). (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1015.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1018.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ( 8 ) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24). This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 120.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (I Kings 16:33-34). (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 107). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (II Kings 2:3-11). (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (II Chronicles 20). (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 108 ). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (I Kings 13:2 and II Kings 23:15-18 ). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote. Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives? *The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited: Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D. Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10. Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2. Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105. |
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml[url]
A bit irrelevant, but I find this Nostradamus site interesting and somewhat informative.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nostradamus.htm
The truth of the matter is that there are so many old testament prophecies that were so specific that have come to pass. You can deny it, you can skew it and try to circle around it, but it's there and it's true. And I do mean BIBLICAL prophecy, not random people spewing prophecy in the name of Christ. Joseph Smith? COME ON.
| Quote: |
| By the way, "There's going to be one world religion and one world government...?" I'd say that the Romans were much closer to one government than we are and I think one world religion is just nonsensical. Islam is the fastest growing religion, so by the time the "rapture" came, I would think that there would be very few Christians left to even go up to Heaven. Wouldn't your God want to save as many of you as possible, which would mean having the end times come while Christianity was still dominate? I think the whole thing logically falls apart when you take into account that atheism and non-religion is on the rise. How can we move towards one world religion when so many people are giving up religion? Hell, I was raised in a very religious family (along with many of my friends) and we've all moved towards atheism independently of each other.
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Christians will be persecuted against. The point is that there will be true Christians left in the end who haven't swayed or fallen into the traps of man. Think of it like a test of faith.
I'm sorry your family and friends have given up on God. I'll pray for all of you.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| I honestly do not think people actually believe in it... they just go along with it because it's fun to joke about. |
Really? I think you would be surprised how many people actually do believe in it. Here is a list of people from this site who think that armageddon is coming in 2012.
| Quote: |
| 2012 Believers List
Established November 1 2007 Add Your Name John Kehne Kentucky, USA Douglas Parrillo Pennsylvania, USA Todd Henady Indiana, USA David R Barron Connecticut, USA Joyce Maurer Pennsylvania, USA August H. Hoch Florida, USA Anthony Garafolo New York, USA Melissa J. Mills Idaho, USA Kevin Krogol Michigan, USA William D. Kenney Ohio, USA Cindy L. Kester Idaho, USA Shannon Spears Georgia, USA Jeremy Girton Michigan, USA Richard Hinderleiter Jr Arizona, USA Andrew Levecchia New Jersey, USA Jane Windorski Missouri, USA Erik Shilakes Michigan, USA Mary J Newton Florida, USA Diane Burkowski New Jersey, USA Ron Skaggs Texas, USA Rebecca W. Glass Virginia, USA David F. Baker Virginia, USA Brandon Huckleby Oklahoma, USA Daniel Rudzinski Indiana, USA Timothy Thacher Illinois, USA Raymond D. Weller Michigan, USA Leandra sanchez California, USA Orlando Ocampo Florida, USA Saverio Morea Virginia, USA Brandy L Rodgers Arkansas, USA Ernest R Dick Georgia, USA Taber Falconer California, USA Katherine Danish Maryland, USA Jerald D. Forsyth Missouri, USA Paul Houssiere California, USA Mark Chatfield Nevada, USA Jay Hullender Georgia, USA J. F. Bettridge Colorado, USA Anthony Lombardi New York, USA Charles M. Shaver Virginia, USA Angelo G Charbonier New Jersey, USA Alex Holland Arizona, USA Christopher Phynes Texas, USA Carlos Propeck Texas, USA Janine R Dionne Virginia, USA S. Benoit VI, VI3 Zach Mineur` New Jersey, USA Jessica A Tasker Colorado, USA Chad M Stewart North Carolina, USA Michael J McHugh New York, USA Phillip J. Choma Oregon, USA Leonard Pazienza Jr New Jersey, USA Robert Gill Ontario, Canada Alison Wechman Illinois, USA Thomas O'Connor Virginia, USA Arturo Languren Idaho, USA Lori A Mezei Nevada, USA Mark Rogers New York, USA John Nobile New Jersey, USA Charles Russell Alaska, USA Nicholas Lomonte Florida, USA Jonathon Cloney Illinois, USA Joseph Lovarco New York, USA Louis R Smith Arizona, USA Holly P. Kotiadis New York, USA Gareth Harding Connecticut, USA Judy A Nichols Washington, USA Chuck Schmidt Colorado, USA John J Montville New York, USA Mary Shortall Pennsylvania, USA David C. Allen Alabama, USA R Elliott Ingersoll Ohio, USA Mark Rogers New York, USA Matthew R Cizek Illinois, USA Jeffrey Gudme Michigan, USA --- Birgit Macintosh Minnesota, USA Milton Hicks California, USA John Broom Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Shane Duffiney Texas, USA Mike P Adams North Carolina, USA Lynda Buddin New York, USA Kristi Kellar Washington, USA Terri P Domsky Pennsylvania, USA Karen Norman Missouri, USA Eitan Bernstein Illinois, USA Christine A. Handy Maryland, USA Pamela M Grossnickle Alaska, USA Melissa Vultaggio Colorado, USA Andrea Jackson Ontario, Canada Billy H. Kingsley Illinois, USA Robert Lorizio Massachusetts, USA Donna K Eberenz Florida, USA Carol J. Coyer Wisconsin, USA Frank Sortini Florida, USA Frank Chiarulli New York, USA Dave derenoski Ontario, Canada Richard Tannery Texas, USA Melinda McCracken Ohio, USA Amanda Palumbo Colorado, USA Briana Tapia Texas, USA Paul J Schmidt Michigan, USA Timothy W. Romberger Maryland, USA Kathryn Major Arizona, USA Lesleigh Bolton Alabama, USA Jodi Ann Hoch Illinois, USA Constance Wigfield West Virginia, USA David R Peffer Ohio, USA Jeanette Nipper Florida, USA Rameshwar Singh New York, USA Christina Ramjit Florida, USA Jeanette Nipper Florida, USA Marie Zorbaugh Arizona, USA Doug Maxwell Ontario, Canada Cody Pardy Ontario, Canada Kayla Pardy Ontario, Canada Kimberly Brown Ontario, Canada Alan Drobnak Colorado, USA Michael P Schell Oregon, USA Kathleen Dell Florida, USA Christopher J Vonkrogh California, USA Margie A DIxon Texas, USA Chelsea V Schinker Florida, USA Rachel D. James Pennsylvania, USA Laurie J Metz Pennsylvania, USA Elizabeth Mimms Utah, USA Meghan Gochin Pennsylvania, USA Wesley R. Wilson Washington, USA Jaedean Petersen California, USA Matthew M Dills California, USA Gerald Kramer Jr Ohio, USA Meghan Gochin Pennsylvania, USA Caroline Lowell Illinois, USA Ronald W Horn Ontario, Canada Gordon Robertson Texas, USA Lorena Hampton Texas, USA Chad Butterfield Georgia, USA Amanda Lawson Pennsylvania, USA Guin Beecher Pennsylvania, USA Mary Beth Broderson-Soper Lorena Horton California, USA Cynthia Johnson-Harcy Tennessee, USA Violanda Sullivan Arizona, USA Heather L Sherbourne Georgia, USA Shane Ducharme Alberta, Canada Donald W. Cook Michigan, USA Chris Kinnear Illinois, USA Darrell Brown Western Australia Reese Lassman --- Randy Blue Arm California, USA Carlos Martins --- Thomas E. Herrmann Michigan, USA Henry W Harris California, USA Eden Williams Texas, USA Michael Weideman Indiana, USA Donald Peel Queensland, Australia Ryan Michelsen Illinois, USA Damoris L Tate-Keech AP, USA Amanda Lawson Pennsylvania, USA Douglas Schmitz New York, USA June Kovac Florida, USA Linda Eagins-Lauderdale Matthew Fisher Louisiana, USA Chris Kinnear Illinois, USA Evelyn Vazquez --- Jay Baulo Ohio, USA Roger Best Illinois, USA Steven Winter Iowa, USA Tanya Schlick New York, USA Daniel A. Zaccardo New Jersey, USA Shannon McGorry Ohio, USA Melissa MacConnell Ohio, USA Lauren Cates Montana, USA James Canosa New York, USA Mark A. Matyas New Jersey, USA Frederick J. Matyas New Jersey, USA Helen F. Matyas New Jersey, USA Kerry A Griffin Ohio, USA David Buechner Wisconsin, USA David Olin Texas, USA Mark Miller Ohio, USA Eric R Lewis Minnesota, USA Derek Kraese New Jersey, USA Dustin Foss Texas, USA Andrew Stupak Manitoba, Canada Rodney G. Tooley Texas, USA Robert L Noggle Alabama, USA Robert Pinkerton California, USA Larry J Cooper Illinois, USA Morry Houser Pennsylvania, USA John Schaefer Colorado, USA David Cobbold Queensland, Australia Michael Bowman Virginia, USA Deanna Keel Virginia, USA Jeremiah Klopfenstein Virginia, USA Shane Cooray Victoria, Australia Keiko Nishimoto Tokyo, Japan Charlene --- Vickie Roesner Illinois, USA Sheldon Speary Pennsylvania, USA Phillip A Barnhart Wisconsin, USA Janine Giroux New York, USA Amanda Davis California, USA Arnaud Braam Lombez, France Jason Jones California, USA Greg R Callaway Indiana, USA Nancy Steinberger New York, USA Maria Gholizadeh Maryland, USA Curt Mongold Kansas, USA Michael O'Donnell California, USA Martin de LaFontaine Quebec, Canada Chris Frye Washington, USA Courtney white Utah, USA Louisa A Morton Missouri, USA Linda Aynes Oklahoma, USA Steve Baumer Ohio, USA Mary Swaim New Jersey, USA Marylou Bugh Michigan, USA Lilly Lucero California, USA Peter Dohr California, USA Barry Keck Florida, USA Richard Russell Virginia, USA Scott White Tasmania, Australia Alan M Honold Georgia, USA Eric Hinson Tennessee, USA Randall Wallace Tennessee, USA Corey Davis Alaska, USA Derek Wennekamp Iowa, USA Martin Hermann DE Gerald D Ignelzi New York, USA Gregory Parshall Colorado, USA Sage Trimarco California, USA Caroline Kinstle Michigan, USA Thomas M. Saxton Kansas, USA Neil Amina Pennsylvania, USA William M Tennessee, USA Benjamin B. Smedberg North Carolina, USA Jessica Andersen Connecticut, USA Daniel Martin Ohio, USA Clay Slape Texas, USA Paul Longo Connecticut, USA Julie Ruth Arizona, USA Nicole DiCamillo New Jersey, USA Joseph Yerbey Tennessee, USA Charles Klosterman New York, USA Dumont Laurent France Mary Knicos New York, USA Robert Flynn North Carolina, USA Edward Wermuth Pennsylvania, USA Joseph Pazos California, USA Richard Anderson California, USA Mark S. Mengel Pennsylvania, USA Wayne A. Magoon New Hampshire, USA Richard Peter Ramsey British Columbia, CA Adam Matthews Texas, USA Stephen Willder Colorado, USA Constance L ONeil Florida, USA Jason T Lewer Michigan, USA Keith Dey Nevada, USA Shoua Her Wisconsin, USA Deborah Steinberg New Jersey, USA Javier Acosta Massachusetts, USA Thomas Lareau Massachusetts, USA Javier A Acosta Massachusetts, USA Jake Willis Kentucky, USA D Rawlence Taranaki, NZ William Thompson California, USA Thomas Hearn Florida, USA Joshua Gaudreau Connecticut, USA Jason Munro Ontario, Canada Nicholas Lomonte Florida, USA Chris Kinnear Illinois, USA Paul Coles North Somerset, GB1 Karl H Teuber California, USA Vicki L. Hall Oregon, USA Mary A Costantino Western Australia Tevyn R Charney California, USA Gregory Bennett Massachusetts, USA Brian Reeves California, USA Pam Walters Virginia, USA --- --- Michael Dolt Ohio, USA Robert Ricks West Virginia, USA David Olin Texas, USA Vern Roberts Washington, USA Dr Gregory E Stone Ohio, USA Gary Ross Midlothian, England Paul Darkins Suffolk England Wade Harris Georgia, USA Amanda Rubino Ohio, USA Darrell Swann Suffolk, England Brian Rubino Ohio, USA Rick Bell Tennessee, USA Georgina Ablett Bedfordshire, England Jason Jones California, USA Rowena Howell California, USA Joey Tuminello Louisiana, USA Jason Bertacchi Illinois, USA Jorin McDonald Ontario, Canada Thomas J Warren Nevada, USA Liz Upton West Midlands, UK R. Brady Carl Texas, USA Lorraine Moskal Ohio, USA Paul Coles North Somerset, UK Steven P McClean Pennsylvania, USA Ryan Dabbs Florida, USA Adam Kandel Maryland, USA Jennifer Goddard Fetcham, UK Chase M Duffin Massachusetts, USA Peter Figur Virginia, USA Noor Ahmad Qadri Saudi Arabia Melissa Hernandez West Virginia, USA Erik Bass Louisiana, USA Terrence McConville Illinois, USA Maureen Shields New York, USA Tyler Wood Indiana, USA Mark Rogers New York, USA Kamaldeep Singh New Delhi, India David E Clay Ohio, USA Gene Balzer Utah, USA Kevin Harvey Maryland, USA M. J. Sidney New York, USA Travis Dow Colorado, USA Mark Samples Georgia, USA Stefano Petessi Venice, Italy Tammy L. Hinkle Indiana, USA Deborah Siefert Louisiana, USA Amy Cheung Ontario, Canada G.N. Howard South Africa Colleen King Ohio, USA Henry P Swierszcz Ontario, Canada Teresa DeRosa California, USA Dean K. Burden Massachusetts, USA Frank Chiarulli ,M.D. New York, USA Klaus Froehlke Germany Juho Tauriainen Pieksämäki, Finland Timothy R Behnke New York, USA Chester A. Packer Maryland, USA Daniel P. Redman Ohio, USA Jack Heritage Alabama, USA Daniel Baer Massachusetts, USA Amber Cloud Oklahoma, USA Micheal C Luckman New York, USA John M. Kessler New Mexico, USA Patricia S. Kessler New Mexico, USA Michael Cannavo Iowa, USA Joanne Toth Michigan, USA Timothy E. Good Ohio, USA Michael C. Morrison Virginia, USA Emily Kasyjanski South Carolina, USA Norio Hayakawa New Mexico, USA Travis Anderson North Dakota, USA John E. Chancellor Massachusetts, USA Emir Manals Massachusetts, USA Brian Klimke California, USA Douglas Schmitz New York, USA Tera L Kittle Ohio, USA Kelly Gulbranson Illinois, USA Mark Miniard Texas, USA Diane Scully Pennsylvania, USA Karissa Bruyere Ontario, Canada Robert Wickland Texas, USA Aaras Von Monovski California, USA Donna Lang South Dakota, USA Richard Clardy Illinois, USA M S Torres Morfin California, USA Robert M Smith Ohio, USA Lorraine A Rick Michigan, USA Paul M Henne Connecticut, USA Rachel Clarke Tennessee, USA Will Batchelor United Kingdom Justin Arbuckle Nova Scotia, Canada Mark Sinclair California, USA Christopher Olsen California, USA JUN MA New York, USA Lauren Conover Maryland, USA Hans-Peter Thomas Germany Michael K Zuspann Missouri, USA Leila Coffey California, USA Rune Miljeteig Oslo, Norway Jessica Andersen Connecticut, USA Jessyann Gregory Kansas, USA Jay Rusek Wisconsin, USA Jeff Anderson Ohio, USA Andrew Simpson New South Wales, AU Jim Farley Montana, USA Joe Messineo New York, USA Starr Farley Montana, USA Terri L Lockwood Hawaii, USA Lori DeFurio New York, USA Don Maloney Vermont, USA Anne McCullian Pennsylvania, USA Charles Brasch III Georgia, USA Curtis Crone Pennsylvania, USA Benjamin Bordelon Louisiana, USA Yoshio Kawasaki California, USA John W McLean III North Carolina, USA Randall Bethune Ontario, Canada Robert C Evans Florida, USA Zach McBrown Virginia, USA Joel Lane Kentucky, USA Brian Babcock Michigan, USA Eva Casto Colorado, USA Wade McDaniel Mississippi, USA Jared Tyler Texas, USA Melissa Hughes Tennessee, USA Laura Lyles Tennessee, USA Alexandre Briere Quebec, Canada Robert Dolan Florida, USA D J Goodwin Kent, Great Britain L M Havelock North Yorkshire, GB Nicholas Padula Texas, USA Robert M Smith Ohio, USA Jorin McDonald Ontario, Canada Michelle L Barker Arizona, USA Ken Tasker North Carolina, USA Jason Mitchell Louisiana, USA Cortney Warwick Arkansas, USA Daniel Thorburn British Columbia, CA Rene Roy Quebec, Canada Erin R. Byrne Texas, USA Shawn McIlvain Pennsylvania, USA Daniel Russo Rhode Island, USA Jose Borrayo Oklahoma, USA Matthew Austad Wisconsin, USA Ian Tanner Ontario, Canada Kaitlyn Randazzo Massachusetts, USA Clayton Marvin Pennsylvania, USA Dylan Cruise Colorado, USA Patricia Lessaris Hall Kentucky, USA H.E.J.Schouten Alicante, Spain Warner Hartsuiker Houten, Netherlands Mary F Leathem Massachusetts, USA Michael Matilsky New York, USA Horace L Lightfoot Texas, USA Piotr Slowinski Illinois, USA Cynthia L. Capps Missouri, USA Elin Skaarland Froeyland Sandnes, Norway Chris Quilisch California, USA Marlene Thrasher Alabama, USA Chris McCauley Texas, USA Michael Mahy Brabant, Belgium Bernice A Zambrano Illinois, USA Oskar Johnstrom West Yorkshire, GB Michael Waltman Pennsylvania, USA Marjorie Main Massachusetts, USA Ben Barringotn Florida, USA Jamal Etienne Georgia, USA / Dominica Shawna Zambetti Washington, USA Luis Valdez California, USA Andrew Kailis Western Australia David Blessing Indiana, USA Darren Bruns North Carolina, USA Johnnie T. Reveire Jr. Florida, USA Nicole Pillsbury New Hampshire, USA Ken DeFilippo New Jersey, USA Rhonda Jones Alabama, USA Christopher Almond Indiana, USA Derek Nelson Indiana, USA Jillian C Houtz Illinois, USA Muzaffer Badilli Tennessee, USA Thomas McIntosh Ohio, USA Stephanie Formanek Florida, USA Tami Sheff Minnesota, USA Michael Whitehead Michigan, USA Jeremy Sellars Wyoming, USA Christina Riseman Massachusetts, USA Andrea Galindo Texas, USA Miss E L Wroe West Yorkshire, GB Kelly J Wilson Georgia, USA Jeff Vonk Netherlands Mark Magcalas California, USA Joni Flores Hawaii, USA Zeynep Ceylan Nemlioglu Windsor Ontario, CA Ivone Alfaro California, USA Morris Pace Missouri, USA Dolores Calderon Washington, USA Cathy McGee Arizona, USA Gwen Peake California, USA Hugo Vargas Da Silva La Paz, Uruguay Jessica Andersen Connecticut, USA Alexander Marshall Wisconsin, USA Ellen Holtskog Sweden Aaron Brock Arizona, USA David L. Shaw Colorado, USA Paula Gil Lugo New Jersey, USA Bryan Lemons Texas, USA Luongo Remo Aargau, Switzerland Shawn Huff California, USA John D Winseck Massachusetts, USA Lois A Bacchiocchi Connecticut, USA Mario Palmieri California, USA Robert Lepor Jr Pennsylvania, USA GT Shansey Tennessee, USA Sara L. Biskup Wisconsin, USA Darren R Rice California, USA Stephen Fraser Australia Jacob Hutchins South Carolina, USA Richard Spencer California, USA John Howitt North Carolina, USA Kathybeth Lamade Pennsylvania, USA Devshan Maharjan California, USA Mark Rogers New York, USA Brian McHenry Ohio, USA Nick Skaredoff Idaho, USA Christine Callow Florida, USA John H. Tiburzi New York, USA Jason Whittle Utah, USA Dane P Weber Kansas, USA Deby A Nelson Wisconsin, USA Robert J Martin Florida, USA Ruddy Chabrat France Sally Lunsford Kansas, USA Edward Bailey South Carolina, USA Matthew William Kell Texas, USA Teresa M Touchton Florida, USA Catherine Kasper Florida, USA Alvin W Knight Ontario, Canada Pete Mattison Alaska, USA Lenette Shugart Florida, USA Nicole M. Andres Pennsylvania, USA Gloria Cortes Tennessee, USA Paula Richburg Florida, USA Kaitlynn Brooks Texas, USA Daniel Jarrell Jr Louisiana, USA Constance Adkins West Virginia, USA Anthony Tonioli Missouri, USA Daniel Kearns Indiana, USA John F Kula Colorado, USA Lillian Bunting Florida, USA Jon Vingo Washington, USA Timothy Casady California, USA Erica Stewart Washington, USA Danny Sullivan Alabama, USA Shanna M Pantina New Jersey, USA Travis Cantin Ontario, Canada David R Orr California, USA Louis Barlow California, USA Jerry Gould Florida, USA Daniel Morrison Virginia, USA Lauren Bross Maryland, USA Helge Vatland Norway James E. Wininger Massachusetts, USA Mike Jarvis West Virginia, USA Jason Cottrell Michigan, USA Samuel Torres Florida, USA Matthieu Rolland France Susan Fortune Alabama, USA Nelva Torres New Jersey, USA Donald L Shrout Hawaii, USA Kathryn Hosbach Florida, USA Simon Beauregard Quebec, Canada Dalibor Weimer Great Britain Zuzana K Sikan Georgia, USA Beverly K Jamar Alabama, USA Michal Sikan Georgia, USA Aaron Levine California, USA Doug Hoover California, USA Nathan Gibson Ohio, USA Timothy P. Casady California, USA Sandra G Floyd Florida, USA Ryan Moench Wisconsin, USA Jonathan Ross Utah, USA Manuel Reynosa California, USA Robert Goltz Pennsylvania, USA Mike Calvert Texas, USA Cheryl A Riedel California, USA Anthony Pizzarelli Florida, USA Chris Urbany Pennsylvania, USA Christopher Wilhelm New Jersey, USA Ruth B Bones Florida, USA Jeremy Ostrovitz Texas, USA Ronald D Jennings Florida, USA Craig Marsh Texas, USA James M. Cook Ohio, USA Frank Henderson Pennsylvania, USA Sally Henderson Pennsylvania, USA Chris Henderson Pennsylvania, USA Bryce Henderson Pennsylvania, USA Sarah Kate Henderson Pennsylvania, USA Ruth B Bones Florida, USA Chelsea Doonan West Virginia, USA Joseph Aschenbrenner New York, USA Sara Horner Michigan, USA Brenda Schmidtke Michigan, USA James R keenan Jr Indiana, USA Stephen B Letendre Pennsylvania, USA Chawndelle Adams Pennsylvania, USA William Obrien Florida, USA Sandy Amoroso Pennsylvania, USA Russ Phillips Alabama, USA Michelle Carter Kentucky, USA Mary-Ann Donnolo North Carolina, USA Luis A Tovar P Venezuela Jonathan Burt United Kingdom Purvesh R Patel Maryland, USA Rudy Valencia California, USA Laura Stamp Michigan, USA Francis M McEvoy Virginia, USA Jade Apsay Washington, USA Julie Atwood Vermont, USA Steven Lesniak Illinois, USA Michael Booth Alabama, USA |
That is a really long list. I'm sure that some of them are joking but not all of them are, and it is a pretty massive list from one site where only a small minority who believe in the apocalypse of 2012 probably visit.
Err...which proves what exactly? That there are a lot of rather stupid people in the world? Well, we knew that already...
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Err...which proves what exactly? That there are a lot of rather stupid people in the world? Well, we knew that already... |
It was actually trying to prove just that actually.
| jessicawalker wrote: | ||
Christians will be persecuted against. The point is that there will be true Christians left in the end who haven't swayed or fallen into the traps of man. Think of it like a test of faith. I'm sorry your family and friends have given up on God. I'll pray for all of you. |
There are no Christians who don't "sin" to my knowledge. You have fallen into the "traps of man" just as anyone else. So what is your point really?
| Xanatos wrote: | ||
It was actually trying to prove just that actually. |
Sounds more like people voting for an event in 2012 than evidence Xanatos. Sort of wishful thinking too in a way. Do they know what they are voting for?
Well not all people think that 2012 means something bad, but I honestly believe that most of the people with their name on the list above think that something really big is going to happen in 2012. It wouldn't surprise me if someone actually did something huge on the 21st just to try and prove that the mayans were right and all these people weren't being superstitious for nothing.
| Quote: |
| Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)! God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance. The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error. As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity. |
Hmmm... the author seems to use a lot of numbers without ever giving a hint of where they came from. That's a common Creationist tactic that they like to use when coming up with statistical/probability bullshit.
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(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history. (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.) |
Most of those "prophecies" have to do with Jesus of Nazareth. That's fine. But I want you to do something. Reflect on the bible's account of his life for a while. What do you think is the actual chance that he even existed? I'd say very slim. The only evidence of his existence is in the Bible. The Bible is simply factually incorrect. It's scientifically a joke (it makes huge claims about unicorns existing and the world being flat). It's not even historically accurate.
Why was Jesus born in Bethlehem? Well if you read the Bible you'll see that Joseph and Mary were leaving for a census. That's complete and utter bullshit. That didn't happen. Jesus was crucified on a cross? You've got to be kidding! Crucifixion was reserved for huge criminals, not religious rebels. Nothing about his birth or death is even remotely historically correct.
So now that I've shown you that the Bible is a complete joke scientifically and historically (and given that the Bible is the only evidence of Jesus' existence), I think that entire prophecy can be discredited. Using the Bible to prove Jesus' existence is like using Lord of the Rings to prove Gandolf's existence.
I'd say that the authors of the New Testament (which was written years after Jesus may have existed) probably based Jesus off of several people. To me, it seems obvious that they wrote a story that would fulfill the prophecies and be able to (barely) squeeze by historically. It's not that hard to read a prophecy out of an old book and then write a new book about it being fulfilled. I'd hardly call the birth of Christ "one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history."
The prophecies that did not deal with Jesus, were actually postdictions, not predictions. Many were written after the fact. Some of them are just straight-up not convincing. Look at this one:
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| (7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted. |
I would be pretty convinced if the people who built the nine suburbs weren't religious and hadn't read the Bible before.
All of those "prophecies" have some sort of fallacy in them, but I do not have time to go through the tedious effort of responding to all 13 one by one. So I just read them all, and since they all follow the same general idea, I was able to wrap them up into one explanation. To review what I said: The Bible is so factually incorrect that it cannot be used as evidence. There's a pretty good possibility that Jesus didn't exist, and if he did exist, he was probably just someone that the authors of the NT based their ideas off. It was probably written to get by (barely) historically and to fulfill all "prophecies." Many of the author prophecies were written about after they actually happened and to claim that they were is just lying.
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| A bit irrelevant, but I find this Nostradamus site interesting and somewhat informative.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nostradamus.htm The truth of the matter is that there are so many old testament prophecies that were so specific that have come to pass. You can deny it, you can skew it and try to circle around it, but it's there and it's true. And I do mean BIBLICAL prophecy, not random people spewing prophecy in the name of Christ. Joseph Smith? COME ON. |
Bringing up Nostradamus is a complete joke. His prophecies are so vague that they could be applied to almost anything. And yes, I brought up Joseph Smith. I brought him up because I associate Mormonism with Christianity. They both worship the almighty dude in the sky. But in all fairness, I brought up regular prophecies from the Old Testament that were clearly contradicted. And as far as I'm concerned, debunking one prophecy debunks them all. It's not necessary to go through each and every one because if God is so damn perfect, all of his prophecies should be true.
| jessicawalker wrote: |
| I'm sorry your family and friends have given up on God. I'll pray for all of you. |
Please don't. I get tired of all these people "praying for me" (although I doubt any of them actually end up praying for me; they probably just say that they do). I appreciate the thought, but I don't need it. Oh, and by the way, all of my family still believes in God. I have an extremely religious family (full of pastors). It's my friends and I that don't believe in God (well many of my friends still do, but many don't).
| Xanatos wrote: | ||
Really? I think you would be surprised how many people actually do believe in it. Here is a list of people from this site who think that armageddon is coming in 2012.
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Damn man! I didn't know the list was that long. I seriously thought it was a joke for most people.
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| Hmmm... the author seems to use a lot of numbers without ever giving a hint of where they came from. That's a common Creationist tactic that they like to use when coming up with statistical/probability bullshit. |
I wasn't talking about the numbers. I don't care about the stupid probablities. I was just trying to show a few pretty specific prophecies that came true.
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| Most of those "prophecies" have to do with Jesus of Nazareth. That's fine. But I want you to do something. Reflect on the bible's account of his life for a while. What do you think is the actual chance that he even existed? I'd say very slim. The only evidence of his existence is in the Bible. The Bible is simply factually incorrect. It's scientifically a joke (it makes huge claims about unicorns existing and the world being flat). It's not even historically accurate. |
Jesus did exist, my friend. Whether you want to see him as a historical figure or a messiah, it's foolish to deny his existance. There are several other SECULAR documents from his time that recalled him and his works. Maybe you should research that a little better.
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| There are some independent, non-biblical books that mention the historical Jesus. Historian Edwin Yamauchi calls attention to the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament. This proof comes from Tacitus, a Roman, who wrote that the Christians were responsible for the fire that destroyed Rome in A.D. 64. He believed that Christ had died under extreme execution during the reign of Pontius Pilatus. Yet, he stated that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which arose, not only in Judea, but also in Rome. He is bearing indirect testimony to the conviction of the early church that Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave. This would explain the bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal. How do you explain that?
Another source of evidence about Jesus is found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He asks Emperor Trajan about various ways to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. He did some research regarding these Christians and this is what he came up with: They met on a certain fixed day before it was light and sang hymns to Christ, as to a god. Unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth. They bound themselves by a solemn oath to not participate in any wicked deeds, and never to commit fraud, theft, adultery, falsify their word, or deny a trust. These early Christians believed he was a real person and they held his teachings in the highest esteem. They also bound themselves to a higher oath to not violate various moral standards which is the source of the ethical teachings of Jesus. The writings of Josephus points out in his reference called, "Testimonium Flavianum, that "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he wrought surprising feats. He was the Christ. When Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared restored to life. And the tribe of Christians has not disappeared." Josephus was not a Christian. Therefore many believe that he could not have written anything such as the above statements. But, even so, we are left with details of a picture which tells us that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same. There is also a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings that give a few clear references to Jesus called the Babylonian Talmud written approximately A.D. 70-500. The most significant reference from this period states, "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald. . .cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.'" The name, Yeshu, is actually the name, Jesus, in Hebrew. However, upon reading the passage, we know for a fact that Jesus was not hanged, but that He was crucified, but the word, "hanged" serves as a synonym for "crucified." And what about the statement that Jesus was to be stoned? This could indicate that the Jewish leaders were planning to do just that, but the Roman Government intervened on those plans. Another source of writings comes from Lucian of Samosata who was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his writings, he notes as follows: "The Christians…worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws." We know the man Lucian is writing of, and that man is Jesus. What did Jesus do to arouse such wrath? He taught men are brothers from the moment of conversion which means denying Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. As we can see, these writings corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. |
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-historical-jesus-faq.htm
As for the prophecy thing, it has all come true and/or will come true if it hasn't yet.
liljp617 wrote:
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| There are no Christians who don't "sin" to my knowledge. You have fallen into the "traps of man" just as anyone else. So what is your point really? |
I am quite aware that nobody is without sin. That is the basis of my belief in Jesus Christ dying on the cross to save us from our sins. I am a sinner, yes. That was not my point at all. I meant succumbing to religious persecution and giving in to the world. You know. Betraying God. Sorry if I confused you.
| jessicawalker wrote: |
| Jesus did exist, my friend. Whether you want to see him as a historical figure or a messiah, it's foolish to deny his existance. There are several other SECULAR documents from his time that recalled him and his works. Maybe you should research that a little better. |
Actually there is quite a lot of evidence against the existence for Jesus. Read The Jesus Mythicist Position . Its long but It really goes over all the evidence in detail. It is a real eye opener if you read through it all.
One of many interesting tidbits in the article...
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| Under the reign of Tiberius the whole earth, or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire, was allegedly involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours. Yet, Seneca and Pliny the Elder, who recorded all the great earthquakes, meteors, comets, and elipses they could find and who lived during the period of Jesus, failed to mention the event.
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There are plenty of reasons to doubt the existence of Jesus.
The references in a previous posting have all been dealt with in detail in some of my previous postings and I don't want to continually rehash the same material. Suffice it to say that there are two references of note (ie within a century of events) - Josephus and Tacitus. The Tacitus reference says nothing about Jesus - merely commenting on the Christian sect. The Josephus reference is widely regarded to be a later forgery/addition.
The later writings (Lucian and the various Rabinical scholars) are way after the event and have no particular significance as historical record.
The references in a previous posting have all been dealt with in detail in some of my previous postings and I don't want to continually rehash the same material. Suffice it to say that there are two references of note (ie within a century of events) - Josephus and Tacitus. The Tacitus reference says nothing about Jesus - merely commenting on the Christian sect. The Josephus reference is widely regarded to be a later forgery/addition.
The later writings (Lucian and the various Rabinical scholars) are way after the event and have no particular significance as historical record.
| jessicawalker wrote: |
| I wasn't talking about the numbers. I don't care about the stupid probablities. I was just trying to show a few pretty specific prophecies that came true. |
I know you personally didn't care about the numbers. However, the fact of the matter is that you endorsed the article and the numbers in the article looked pretty sketchy to me. So I was a) responding to the article and b) showing you one of the reasons why I shouldn't believe what the article said.
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| Jesus did exist, my friend. Whether you want to see him as a historical figure or a messiah, it's foolish to deny his existance. There are several other SECULAR documents from his time that recalled him and his works. Maybe you should research that a little better. |
Then how about you show me a secular document that doesn't contain plagiarism, bad science, false historical facts, and was written DURING the supposed life of Christ? I don't think you'll succeed in finding an article.
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| As we can see, these writings corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-historical-jesus-faq.htm |
How are you going to tell me that there are plenty of secular documents available and then give me a link to a Christian website? Not very convincing...
Xanatos also provided a very nice article. It contains a lot of nice information. For more information, you can also check out this old post:
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-96416.html
Pay particular attention to what Indi says. He provides the most useful information.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| Then how about you show me a secular document that doesn't contain plagiarism, bad science, false historical facts, and was written DURING the supposed life of Christ? I don't think you'll succeed in finding an article. |
How about that which we are writing about right now? Jesus has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, a billion or more times outside this thread. That is documentation is it not? It is real. I believe it is real as a meme, and attached to us. Some doubt in Jesus, some believe in Jesus. You were brought up with Jesus in your life. That is real, whether there has been documentation or not. What has documentation really got to do with it? Think Richard Dawkins coined it well for it being a "meme". You can't delete a meme with doubt. I also believe you cannot exclude the doubt either, i.e. there has never been a Jesus, as that is real as well, with or without documentation.
| deanhills wrote: | ||
How about that which we are writing about right now? Jesus has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, a billion or more times outside this thread. That is documentation is it not? It is real. I believe it is real as a meme, and attached to us. Some doubt in Jesus, some believe in Jesus. You were brought up with Jesus in your life. That is real, whether there has been documentation or not. What has documentation really got to do with it? Think Richard Dawkins coined it well for it being a "meme". You can't delete a meme with doubt. I also believe you cannot exclude the doubt either, i.e. there has never been a Jesus, as that is real as well, with or without documentation. :) |
Sure, this is documentation of Jesus.
Check this out! Gandolf is my favorite character from Lord of the Rings. I want to meet him, since he's completely real.
We now have official documentation for the existence of Gandolf. The reason why what you said is a logical fallacy is because I asked jessicawalker for documentation written during Jesus' life. I want to read it from people who actually met him.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | ||||
Sure, this is documentation of Jesus. Check this out! Gandolf is my favorite character from Lord of the Rings. I want to meet him, since he's completely real. We now have official documentation for the existence of Gandolf. The reason why what you said is a logical fallacy is because I asked jessicawalker for documentation written during Jesus' life. I want to read it from people who actually met him. |
I think it is unrealistic to find documentation that has been written during Jesus's life. It was word by mouth mostly. Someone a few centuries later put pen to paper and they have been debating it ever since then. Who knows, maybe that someone who put pen to paper created Jesus, but the story is so interesting, there has to be some smoke there.| deanhills wrote: | ||||||
I think it is unrealistic to find documentation that has been written during Jesus's life. It was word by mouth mostly. Someone a few centuries later put pen to paper and they have been debating it ever since then. Who knows, maybe that someone who put pen to paper created Jesus, but the story is so interesting, there has to be some smoke there. |
No there really doesn't. People have a tendency to believe in things they have never even seen. Especially back then. There were plenty of writers and historians back then, and none of them ever mentioned Jesus.
nuclear holocaust or the world will continue as it did before
| Flarkis wrote: |
| nuclear holocaust or the world will continue as it did before |
I don't know... with Obama wanting to disarm all of our nuclear weapons we just might get our asses nuked because nothing would be stopping those countries like Iran or North Korea.
wouldn't it be nice for men to have the ability to create real magic?
| Xanatos wrote: | ||
I don't know... with Obama wanting to disarm all of our nuclear weapons we just might get our asses nuked because nothing would be stopping those countries like Iran or North Korea. |
Why do you think other countries (supposedly) desire nuclear weapons?
| liljp617 wrote: | ||||
Why do you think other countries (supposedly) desire nuclear weapons? |
To bomb the shit out of us...
| Xanatos wrote: |
| No there really doesn't. People have a tendency to believe in things they have never even seen. Especially back then. There were plenty of writers and historians back then, and none of them ever mentioned Jesus. |
OK, the point I'm trying to make is why get hung up about "back then". Jesus is real to many people, has been for centuries. There is a story about him in the Bible. People believe in Jesus. Let them believe what they want to believe? It is sacred to them. And it works for them. Still like Richard Dawkins' explanation of memes and it being passed on from one generation to another. This makes sense to me. So let people nurse their memes if it makes them happy. The part that I do not like is when their memes are different from others and they start judging, pointing fingers, etc. or say anyone is going to go to hell. I guess that is when one then has to make a number of good points to let them know they are on the wrong track.
Last edited by deanhills on Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:39 am; edited 2 times in total
| deanhills wrote: | ||
OK, the point I'm trying to make is why get hung up about "back then". Jesus is real to many people, has been for centuries. There is a story about him in the Bible. People believe in Jesus. Let them believe what they want to believe? It is sacred to them. And it works for them. Still like Richard Dawkins' explanation of memes and it being passed on from one generation to another. This makes sense to me. |
Yes, I agree that he is believed in by many people... but it doesnt make him real.
| Xanatos wrote: | ||||||
To bomb the shit out of us... |
Do we have nuclear weapons to "bomb the shit out of people?" Not really. These countries want nuclear weapons because it gives them power at the negotiating table and in their specific region. If they really wanted to start a nuclear holocaust, I'm pretty sure they're not worried about deterrents.
| liljp617 wrote: | ||||||||
Do we have nuclear weapons to "bomb the shit out of people?" Not really. These countries want nuclear weapons because it gives them power at the negotiating table and in their specific region. If they really wanted to start a nuclear holocaust, I'm pretty sure they're not worried about deterrents. |
Which countries are you referring to? I specifically mentioned Iran and North Korea. North Korea especially Does not want to negotiate. Oh and the reason they havent started a nuclear holocaust yet is because they are still building their weapons.
| Xanatos wrote: | ||||||||||
Which countries are you referring to? I specifically mentioned Iran and North Korea. North Korea especially Does not want to negotiate. Oh and the reason they havent started a nuclear holocaust yet is because they are still building their weapons. |
Are we still on topic here, 2012? If a nuclear holocaust is inevitable after North Korea has built its weapons, that would mean we will bite the bullet long before 2012? Is that what you meant?
I'm not sure what Obama is doing with disarmament treaties, but I am almost certain the United States has enough checks and balances in its Government system to prevent any of his decisions that may harm the United States to the extent that you have mentioned, see the light.
actually the world will NOT end according to the Maya calender. It is set to end, as OUR years end every 365 days, where to the Maya calender is 5000 years.
You have to give the Mayas props for this. They constructed a calender that's five thousand years old and their offset is 6 seconds, to where we have out christian calender, and it contains a 6 hours offset every years.
Now the only thing that will happen is that we are going into the 6th sun as they call it. Every calender is a "SUN"
These people lived FIVE SUNS thats almost 25,000 years. imagine their advances. I think that the reason why they did not have our technology is because they knew that they would kill "Pacha Mama" (earth) by creating things like cars, electricity etc.
its just amazing
You have to give the Mayas props for this. They constructed a calender that's five thousand years old and their offset is 6 seconds, to where we have out christian calender, and it contains a 6 hours offset every years.
Now the only thing that will happen is that we are going into the 6th sun as they call it. Every calender is a "SUN"
These people lived FIVE SUNS thats almost 25,000 years. imagine their advances. I think that the reason why they did not have our technology is because they knew that they would kill "Pacha Mama" (earth) by creating things like cars, electricity etc.
its just amazing
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